Europe

[Furunculus]

The "will of the people" is nice and vague enough to justify pretty much anything. And yet if we had followed it constantly, then we would never have legalised abortion, homosexuality, scrapped the death penalty etc.

Seeing as how the legislation it is referring to is based on the European Convention on Human Rights, I'd say the latter.

Silly me, having my own, well considered opinions. I guess I should just hoover up whatever is in the Daily Fail and believe that then.

are you sure of that? i am not so sure because there is no evidence that britain would have acted differently were circumstances different.

you may get a shock when you realise that the majority of your compatriots disagree with you.

you can hold whatever opinion you wish, i just find it slightly tyrannical that you are willing to justify the imposition of your liberal (in the modern sense) opinion on every one else, whether they want it or not.

[Louis VI the Fat]

Fight the tyranny, Furunculus! That's two Britons on this very page who refuse to bow to the Will of the British People! Fight, fight and resist them - lest there be people who stand in the way of Britain's One and Indivisible Will!

[Furunculus]

oh i will, i will always fight to ensure a representative Britain.

whether i like the result or not.
have i not said in the past that i would accept (grudgingly) a federal EU with Britain a active and positive participant, if that is what the people wanted?

while the people are not given that choice, and especially so when the people appear to be opposed, then the result of pursuing the default course of ever-deeper-union is both un-representative and tyrannical.

but you guys won't have a problem with that; tyranny of the majority just being another slogan to shout whenever anyone threatens your post-national liberal* project. ;)



* in the modern nannying sense, rather the the more noble original.

[Subotan]

are you sure of that? i am not so sure because there is no evidence that britain would have acted differently were circumstances different.

IIRC support of the death penalty is almost always high when it is abolished, and then gradually declines over time. I don't know about the others, to be fair.

you may get a shock when you realise that the majority of your compatriots disagree with you

Funnily enough, people always get a shock when I tell them I'm pro-EU. The very idea is alien to many of them, since they have been force-fed for years this concept of all-incompetent, all-useless Union.

you can hold whatever opinion you wish, i just find it slightly tyrannical that you are willing to justify the imposition of your liberal (in the modern sense) opinion on every one else, whether they want it or not.

Well, that's the great paradox of liberalism, isn't it? Is it illiberal to force other people to be liberal?

Fight the tyranny, Furunculus! That's two Britons on this very page who refuse to bow to the Will of the British People! Fight, fight and resist them - lest there be people who stand in the way of Britain's One and Indivisible Will!

England Prevails!

[Furunculus]

IIRC support of the death penalty is almost always high when it is abolished, and then gradually declines over time. I don't know about the others, to be fair.

Funnily enough, people always get a shock when I tell them I'm pro-EU. The very idea is alien to many of them, since they have been force-fed for years this concept of all-incompetent, all-useless Union.

Well, that's the great paradox of liberalism, isn't it? Is it illiberal to force other people to be liberal?

England Prevails!

i agree entirely that the death penalty is the exception here, only difference is that i have nothing against the death penalty if that's what the people want. i am equally happy to be without the death penalty if that is what the people wish. what is unhealthy is laws that do not have the agreement or respect of civil society.

as opposed to years of being fed pro-EU propaganda, that is different somehow?

it might be a paradox for modern liberalism, but that ain't my problem as i'm all about classical liberalism.

we usually do, you never know we might do this time too.

[Evil_Maniac From Mars]

as opposed to years of being fed pro-EU propaganda, that is different somehow?

Indeed. Here, claiming one is anti-EU in any company but that of your closest friends or family automatically seems to make others wonder if you are a far-right extremist. An irrational viewpoint, to be sure, but I cannot deny that the pro-European propaganda has been phenomenally good.

[Subotan]

i agree entirely that the death penalty is the exception here, only difference is that i have nothing against the death penalty if that's what the people want. i am equally happy to be without the death penalty if that is what the people wish. what is unhealthy is laws that do not have the agreement or respect of civil society.

So would you have supported the abolishment of the death penalty if 75% of Brits had agreed with it? (IIRC, that was the statistic of people who agreed with it in Germany when it was abolished)

as opposed to years of being fed pro-EU propaganda, that is different somehow?

I was exposed to that propaganda for just under two months, as I was born in July 92

[Evil_Maniac From Mars]

So would you have supported the abolishment of the death penalty if 75% of Brits had agreed with it? (IIRC, that was the statistic of people who agreed with it in Germany when it was abolished)

I personally would not support the idea - presuming "death penalty" is generic for whichever policy I support - of abolishing it, but if that was the will of the people, I would not be as upset.

[Furunculus]

So would you have supported the abolisment of the death penalty if 75% of Brits had agreed with it? (IIRC, that was the statistic of people who agreed with it in Germany when it was abolished)

I was exposed to that propaganda for just under two months, as I was born in July 92

yes.

no you weren't, you just get your pro-EU propaganda mixed in with some blame-the-eu tub-thumping from some opportunist british politicians.