Europe

[Subotan]

China and India are good examples of "Civilisation States".

[Furunculus]

what is a civilisation state, and how is china a good example of anything to someone living in a western liberal democracy?

[Philippus Flavius Homovallumus]

I can entirely understand your valid qualms about political unions, but your thesis above is patently untrue. Real world examples of cultures (as diverse as any in Europe) that have been successfully fused include the United Kingdom. When peoples' economic and political aims align so that a union makes them stronger, richer and more peaceable, they tend to accede to the idea. This has happened from the first tribes onwards.

Your nation state concept is merely one of the more enduring plateau points.

The forging of the UK was something done by a narrow and privilaged elite, whom it would never directly advantage. You and I both know that all four countries suffered cultural persecution, economic trouble and bloody insurrection because of the Union.

So my question would be why certain Europhiles are trying to ramn the same thing through our individual governments, in order to cause the same pain? I though we had progressed beyond that.

how much blood are you willing to spill in order to achieve this convergence?

certainly, there are peoples who exist under nation states to which they are very lightly commited, where they concept of the nation state is exactly that, and abstract concept, however there are many other nations where this is not the case.

i would argue that britain is one, among others.

in which case the amount of blood to be spilt in britain is going to be relatively greater than that of belgium for example, a nation with little commitment from its constituent peoples

To be fair, "Britishness" is really "Englishness, which is also adopted by anglicised peoples in the other two Kingdoms and the Principality. I don't think that, for example, the majority of the Welsh population feel the need to protect the "English" monarchy or what they see as the "English" parliament.

[Tellos Athenaios]

The forging of the UK was something done by a narrow and privilaged elite, whom it would never directly advantage.

Should've been “who kept their position of power”. There's this illusion that the UK was some sort of rock solid monarchy and always has been. That illusion was forged then, that is the illusion of the UK, and it is a tradition invented to make the monarchy a bit more stable. In other words it benefited those in power; because the alternative -from their perspective- was their heads on public display severed from their body.

[Furunculus]

lest anyone be unaware of the current position of the american government on the EU, Biden's address to the European parliament:

"As you already know, ladies and gentlemen, not only am I pleased to be back here in Brussels for the second time as Vice President — as you probably know, some American politicians and American journalists refer to Washington, DC as the “capital of the free world.” But it seems to me that this great city, which boasts 1,000 years of history and which serves as the capital of Belgium, the home of the European Union, and the headquarters for NATO, this city has its own legitimate claim to that title.

As a lawmaker for more than 36 years in our Parliament, I feel particularly honored to address the European Parliament. President Obama and I were the first running mates in the last 50 years in America to make it to the White House from our legislative bodies. So we both come to our executive jobs with a deep appreciation for the work you do here in the bastion of European democracy.

Together with my former colleagues in the United States Congress, you and I represent more than 800 million people. Stop and think about that for a moment: two elected bodies that shape the laws for almost one-eighth of the planet’s population. That’s truly remarkable.

And now under the Lisbon Treaty, you’ve taken on more powers and a broader responsibility that comes with that increased influence. And we welcome it. We welcome that, because we, the United States, need strong allies and alliances to help us tackle the problems of the 21st century, many of which are the same but so many are different than the last century.

Let me state it as plainly as I can: The Obama-Biden administration has no doubt about the need for and strongly supports a vibrant European Union. We believe it’s absolutely essential to American prosperity and long-term security. So have no doubt about that.

As i said, America will do everything it can to push Britain into a federal EU for two reasons:
1. to make the EU effective
2. to make the EU anglophile

I'm remain an anglophile well in advance of any european sentiment, but on this one don't expect us to rollover just to keep the US feeling nice and secure!

[gaelic cowboy]

lest anyone be unaware of the current position of the american government on the EU, Biden's address to the European parliament:

As i said, America will do everything it can to push Britain into a federal EU for two reasons:
1. to make the EU effective
2. to make the EU anglophile

I'm remain an anglophile well in advance of any european sentiment, but on this one don't expect us to rollover just to keep the US feeling nice and secure!

Your position assumes that America will remain Anglophile in the future I would posit this is a dangerous place to hang your coat.

[Furunculus]

the level of intelligence and technology cooperation between the US, UK, Oz and Canada is pretty fundamental, i don't see that changing any time soon.

[Tellos Athenaios]

what is a civilisation state, and how is china a good example of anything to someone living in a western liberal democracy?

Well one can't deny that in China more than other countries there has been a persistent and concerted (political) effort to `push' a single elite (Han) culture, blotting out everything that isn't of the same culture.

[gaelic cowboy]

China and India are good examples of "Civilisation States".

Hmm Civilisation States sounds like something from Samuel P Huntington's thesis on the Clash of Civilisation's not entirely sure what he is talking about either.