Twitter discussion

[fomalhaut]

throwing an axe seems like an awful waste for many people (levies..). a certified axe thrower would have to be pretty rich? own a lot of tool sheds? i am being dead serious here. i know how cheap axes are to make but not WAR axes designed specifically for chopping or throwing at human beings and not for other uses

[Moros]

When we preview or add an axe throwing to one of our releases be sure to find a lot of historical and archaeological information about it and expect information to back it up as well.

[Arjos]

throwing an axe seems like an awful waste for many people (levies..). a certified axe thrower would have to be pretty rich? own a lot of tool sheds? i am being dead serious here. i know how cheap axes are to make but not WAR axes designed specifically for chopping or throwing at human beings and not for other uses

Given how war axes were the poorer choice to arm oneself I doubt it...

[QuintusSertorius]

throwing an axe seems like an awful waste for many people (levies..). a certified axe thrower would have to be pretty rich? own a lot of tool sheds? i am being dead serious here. i know how cheap axes are to make but not WAR axes designed specifically for chopping or throwing at human beings and not for other uses

A throwing axe and a war axe are two different things.

[fomalhaut]

yet still distinct from the axe a man uses to chop wood

[Ca Putt]

own a lot of tool sheds?

Arthur two sheds Jackson?

[nazgool]

Hot news :)

Finished the sweboz slinger model, now to skin it. ~Tux
5 minutes ago via web

[nazgool]

Another great new from iberia :)

Finished model for 2 iberian elite units (inf+cav). Heavy armour, pectoral disks, caetras, splendid helmets, soliferrum and swords. - JMRC

Personally i put on Iberi Curisi and Loricati Caetrati.

[QuintusSertorius]

yet still distinct from the axe a man uses to chop wood

Three different things, but a throwing axe and hachet aren't wildly different from each other. Certainly cheaper than a war axe and probably a woodcutter's axe too, being smaller and using both less metal and less wood.

[Skullheadhq]

Throwing axes? Is this even historically accurate? I have never read about anything like this in the ancient world.

[moonburn]

wierd considering that the franks came from holland/belgium and they had many troops trowing axes at the romans to get gaul (when you need to pierce trough heavy armour arrows aren´t all that effective)

[Skullheadhq]

wierd considering that the franks came from holland/belgium and they had many troops trowing axes at the romans to get gaul (when you need to pierce trough heavy armour arrows aren´t all that effective)

Franks in EBII? This keeps getting weirder and weirder.

[TheLastDays]

There'll be no faction called Franks, well... at least I predict that ^^ - it only said that there's a throwing axe somewhere, for all we know it could be a celtic unit from Gaul or a new Pahlavan unit (You know what I mean...) - so we don't know what to expect there but what I expect from past experience is that, if there's a guy throwing an axe in EBII, there probably was a guy throwing an axe between 272 BC and 14 AD.

[Horatius Flaccus]

Throwing axes? Is this even historically accurate? I have never read about anything like this in the ancient world.

Moros:

When we preview or add an axe throwing to one of our releases be sure to find a lot of historical and archaeological information about it and expect information to back it up as well.

[stratigos vasilios]

EB2 map layout almost done. Lots of hard work and research! - Tanit

A preview and map progress? Madness!

[Constantius III]

wierd considering that the franks came from holland/belgium and they had many troops trowing axes at the romans to get gaul (when you need to pierce trough heavy armour arrows aren´t all that effective)

Actually, the francisca is most plausibly a weapon of Roman origin.

[Ludens]

Actually, the francisca is most plausibly a weapon of Roman origin.

Interesting. Could you give a source?

[Constantius III]

Interesting. Could you give a source?

Sure. G. Halsall, "Archaeology and the Late Roman Frontier in northern Gaul: the so-called Föderatengräber reconsidered" (collected in Halsall, Cemeteries and Society in Merovingian Gaul (Leiden; Boston, 2010)):

[174] Weapon-burials: A 'Germanic' trait?

So we move onto these weapons, the other key support for the 'Germanic' identification, leading to a grave like Dieue-sur-Meuse 101 being called 'Germanic' on the sole basis of the fact that it has a (Roman) spear in it.⁴⁸ There is nothing of 'Germanic' origin in this grave, or its contemporaries on the site, or in the rituals used. Michel Kazanski has recently argued that the weaponry in these graves is overwhelmingly of Roman origin, and that where external influences can be detected they as often come from the east as from Free Germany.⁴⁹ Even the axe, the most common of all weapons in these graves (and, again, much more common in Gallic than in north German weapon burials), long held as being a clearly 'Germanic' weapon,⁵⁰ is probably late Roman, as numerous written references attest.⁵¹ I would suggest that the axe is a cheap, mass-produced side-arm, perhaps for limitanei.

[...]

⁴⁹ Kazanski, 'L'Équipment et le materiel militaires', pp. 37-54.
⁵⁰ Even in ORz, p. 200.
⁵¹ Axes used by the Roman army: Amm. Marc., Res Gestae 19.6.7, 26.8.10; Vegetius, De Rei Militari 4.46; Notitia Dignitatum Or. 11, Occ. 11 (illustrations of the Magistri Officiorum for east and west); Scriptores Historiae Augustae, Caracalla, 4.i. See also the cavalryman's tomb from Gamzigrad on the Danubian frontier, which depicts the deceased carrying an axe whilst on horseback: P. Southern & K. Dixon, The Late Roman Army (London, 1996), p. 93. I am grateful to Dr. Jon Barlow of the University of Sydney for some of these references, though we will have to differ on their interpretation. Note, too, that no source refers to pre-settlement Franks using axes, not even Ammianus' detailed account of Julian's Frankish wars. Ulrich Dahmlos, in his seminal article, ''Francisca-Bipennis-Securis'. Bemerkungen zu archäologischem Befund und schriftlicher überlieferung.' Germania 55 (1977), pp. 141-65, expressed surprise that no franciscae were known from the Frankish homelands. His surprise was misplaced; the true francisca is clearly, even from archaeological data, a fifth-century north Gallic development.

This is part of a general argument that weapon-burials were not a 'Germanic' trend, inasmuch as the practice is just as uncommon in 'Free' Germany before the fourth century as it is in Gaul, and significantly more uncommon after that. He also argues (in another book, Barbarian Migrations and the Roman West) that the 'Frankish' construct probably stems from the Roman army on the Loire River in the late fifth century, and that that Loire army basically metamorphosed into the Salians of Childeric and Clovis, regardless of prior 'ethnicity' among the soldiers in the army (which certainly contained 'Frankish' and 'Roman' soldiers). Halsall's a bit of a revisionist (he and Kulikowski get up to hijinks together) but he's no Goffart and he's definitely one of the main authorities on fifth-century north Gallic archaeology.

[stratigos vasilios]

3 tweets!

Finished model for a lusitanian elite cav unit. Padded armour, soliferrum, falcatas, caetras and montefortino/iberian helmets. - JMRC

Finished a slinger unit for the Sweboz and Lugii faction, a peak at them with the unit cards: http://bit.ly/joW50z http://bit.ly/m5YXzH ~Tux

and

Made some standard models for a secret faction... ~Tux

Spoilt.

[Ca Putt]

hmmmm that sounds as if:
there is no other Germanic Faction(so no Chatti, Cherusci, or Cimbri And it is less likely that there is going to be a belgae faction) not that the chances were that high anyway

[Arjos]

That roman axe argument is somewhat fantasious...
The army in those years was made up of germanic people, and the standard equipment was paid and made by the Romans...
Weapon and ceramic burials in the whole of central Europe trace back to the dawn of mankind almost, with the battle axe being a status symbol for thousands of years...
That the Frankish genesis is related to the roman army is most likely, but calling a late roman weapon "purely roman" is an exageration...

[Ca Putt]

but calling a late roman weapon "purely roman" is an exageration.

just late?^^

[Arjos]

ahahahahah indeed XD

[TheLastDays]

Exactly, most roman weapons were taken and sometimes improved from others...

And I don't think the chances for a third germanic faction were really high at any time...

[LusitanianWolf]

Can't wait to see how the new/reworked Lusos, Sweboz and Lugione units look! And to put them into action ^^
And curious about the "secret faction" Tux is talking about... Whatever it is, surelly will be interesting :)
I would like to see more of the so called european "barbarian" factions but it would be fair if the next big preview is something in the east since we dont have any there yet.

[Constantius III]

That roman axe argument is somewhat fantasious...
The army in those years was made up of germanic people, and the standard equipment was paid and made by the Romans...
Weapon and ceramic burials in the whole of central Europe trace back to the dawn of mankind almost, with the battle axe being a status symbol for thousands of years...
That the Frankish genesis is related to the roman army is most likely, but calling a late roman weapon "purely roman" is an exageration...

Yeah, the army wasn't comprised even mostly of "Germanic peoples" in any meaningful sense until maybe the last ten years of the WRE's existence. And when the only indication that a given weapon was produced by anybody other than Romans is a story in Isidore that we know to be made up, then it's probably safe to call it a 'Roman weapon'. Keep in mind also Halsall's rhetorical employment of hyperbole to get the point across to people like Bernard Bachrach.

And curious about the "secret faction" Tux is talking about... Whatever it is, surelly will be interesting :)
I would like to see more of the so called european "barbarian" factions but it would be fair if the next big preview is something in the east since we dont have any there yet.

Yeah, but "geographic balance" ain't the only consideration. I imagine the EB team will preview a faction when they have enough material to make such a preview meaningful, with geography a secondary or tertiary consideration.

[Arjos]

The only ones I'd go as far as calling them roman weapons are the scutum, pilum and corvus; but still quite a stretch...

[bobbin]

We don't have enough work done on the eastern factions to give you a proper preview yet I'm afraid.

[LusitanianWolf]

The only ones I'd go as far as calling them roman weapons are the scutum, pilum and corvus; but still quite a stretch...

Wasnt scutum copied from celts/iberians? XD

We don't have enough work done on the eastern factions to give you a proper preview yet I'm afraid.

Well, everything in its due time, thanks for the clarification anyway :)

[Arjos]

Well you know, let's give them some credit for the tilted edges and rectangular shape...