Twitter discussion

[antisocialmunky]

They didn't do it on Day 3 of Thermopylae :-p

[Phalanx300]

They didn't do it on Day 3 of Thermopylae :-p

They did in 300.

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It all boils down to two things:

What was the predominant hoplite style fighting?Overhand.
Did they use underhand on exceptional occasions? Certainly.

We all agree on the exceptions you've put forward, which are well based, but you cannot seriously think that 8000 hoplites in a battleline would charge without any spacing between them, or that the synaspismos would work perfectly all along the line. Some hoplites would have spacings between one and another, allowing this and other kind of movements.

This is exceptional and utilized when the conditions allowed it. How many times do I have to tell that?

Who says that Hoplites would charge in the first place? There isn't any solid proof of that, as far as we know they could as easilly marched in formation. Why do you think writers were so amaxed at the Athenians charging at Marathon, they charged and just before engaging reformed the Phalanx since chargings disrupts the Phalanx. Otherwise what use is war music? What use is the formation?

So you are saying one Hoplite would charge out of the formation risking the lives of his comrades to to an underhand attack and then quickly change to overhand with both sides charging? That just isn't practical.

It just isn't practical, which by all means makes it not fully Historical, especially if you see Hoplites as charging soldiers which means he just doesn't have the time to do it since he would have to do it within a second.

I think the animation is more a thing for loose order fighting and not in the Phalanx dense formation.

[Ca Putt]

hey it is a charge anim, so only(seldom) used IF you charge which you normally do without interlocked shields. It's not used when normally engaging an opponent in tight formation.

[Phalanx300]

hey it is a charge anim, so only(seldom) used IF you charge which you normally do without interlocked shields. It's not used when normally engaging an opponent in tight formation.

When attacking your units auto-charge.

And even if you don't charge with interlocked shield your allies and your enemies don't freeze to give you enough time to go from under to overhand and that without hurting an ally (which definately happens in a non perfect shieldwall).

[-Praetor-]

Who says that Hoplites would charge in the first place?

I do.

There isn't any solid proof of that, as far as we know they could as easilly marched in formation. Why do you think writers were so amaxed at the Athenians charging at Marathon, they charged and just before engaging reformed the Phalanx since chargings disrupts the Phalanx.

Yet yourself provide a historical case where hoplites charged at the enemy. Herodotus himself said, in his account, that the "Athenians were the first to introduce the custom of charging the enemy at a run" on this occassion... and that happened more than 200 years before our timeframe.

The historians were amazed at the distance the athenians charged, considering the panoply they had on them. Most of the time, the phalanxes would build momentum at a fast but steady pace, and only on the last meters make a full charge against the enemy hoping to break the enemy with the momentum already built.

We are trying to represent an alternative to be used when some minor gaps would have opened in the shield wall, during the last meters of the charge, and we are trying to portrait that with this animation.

I think the animation is more a thing for loose order fighting and not in the Phalanx dense formation.

Well, that's the thing. We cannot fine-tune the game to utilize one charging animation for one formation, and another for another formation. We cannot make the engine calculate how much space there is between one individual soldier and another. Yet, for that reason we will scrap this animation? Because fo that reasoning, we should also scrap another animation where the hoplite finishes off an opponent with the buttspike, because that animation, despite being historical, needs some space to change the direction of the spear, and your reasoning is that in a shield wall there wasn't space to use the doru like that.

So you are saying one Hoplite would charge out of the formation risking the lives of his comrades to to an underhand attack and then quickly change to overhand with both sides charging? That just isn't practical.

Where did I said that? That's a straw man argument.

I usually stop debating when fallacies start to become involved like in this case, and this won't be the exception.

[Tellos Athenaios]

Who says that Hoplites would charge in the first place? There isn't any solid proof of that

There is literature which suggests this ranging from Homer to Xenophon: http://books.google.com/books?id=6HX...charge&f=false

That's just a quick google search.

[antisocialmunky]

~500 years of Hoplite Fighting and no one does a charge? Rofl.

[Phalanx300]

~500 years of Hoplite Fighting and no one does a charge? Rofl.

I'm sure Phalangites in their years did it as well.

I just mean that is was rather an exception then a common thing as it puts the formation at risk.

Yet yourself provide a historical case where hoplites charged at the enemy. Herodotus himself said, in his account, that the "Athenians were the first to introduce the custom of charging the enemy at a run" on this occassion... and that happened more than 200 years before our timeframe.

The historians were amazed at the distance the athenians charged, considering the panoply they had on them. Most of the time, the phalanxes would build momentum at a fast but steady pace, and only on the last meters make a full charge against the enemy hoping to break the enemy with the momentum already built.

We are trying to represent an alternative to be used when some minor gaps would have opened in the shield wall, during the last meters of the charge, and we are trying to portrait that with this animation.

Yes, though I take the way that he ment they charged to avoid the arrows and before impact they halted and reformed the Phalanx.

And again it shows its and exception rather then the usual.

Well, that's the thing. We cannot fine-tune the game to utilize one charging animation for one formation, and another for another formation. We cannot make the engine calculate how much space there is between one individual soldier and another. Yet, for that reason we will scrap this animation? Because fo that reasoning, we should also scrap another animation where the hoplite finishes off an opponent with the buttspike, because that animation, despite being historical, needs some space to change the direction of the spear, and your reasoning is that in a shield wall there wasn't space to use the doru like that.

If its unhistorical then scrap it, as simple as that.

Ofcourse you could use a butt pike but not underhand in an charge, its just not practical when you look at space and time needed to perform such a thing, even if the shieldwall is inperfect.

Where did I said that? That's a straw man argument.

I usually stop debating when fallacies start to become involved like in this case, and this won't be the exception.

You just did it again, the shieldwall isn't perfect so some soldiers supposedly charge and put their allies at risk?

And strawman?

There is literature which suggests this ranging from Homer to Xenophon: http://books.google.com/books?id=6HX...charge&f=false

That's just a quick google search.

Once again it immplies an exception rather then the common.

[antisocialmunky]

Man, you are such a buzz kill. :-p

[Knight of Ne]

LOL, all this hassle over a simple animation that makes a cool change now and again. I really don't see what the hassle is.

P.S. I really love that animation, the amount of thought thats gone in to it is brilliant. Great work.

Knight of Ne =)

[Ludens]

I just mean that is was rather an exception then a common thing as it puts the formation at risk.

The exception of Marathon was that the charge was carried out over such a long distance, not that it was carried out at all. In his discussion on the myths of hoplite warfare, Hans van Wees does not even debate whether hoplites charged: all his attention goes to establishing how they charged.

You just did it again, the shieldwall isn't perfect so some soldiers supposedly charge and put their allies at risk?

And strawman?

The strawman being that no-one claimed hoplites left the formation. Rather, the formation was looser than you imply and some individual soldiers would have had the space to execute this manoeuvre during the charge.

Off course, if the team goes with a dense hoplite phalanx (something that is debatable: the above-mentioned Van Wees argues that hoplite formation was looser than that in EB), then yes, the inclusion of this animation is questionable.

[Parallel Pain]

On the last motion when the hoplite goes back to overhand,

Wouldn't it be quite hard to do that because the spear would get caught in the enemy formation? like knock into some enemy shield and stuff.