Twitter discussion

**Phalanx300** · 10-11-2009, 20:58

Originally Posted by antisocialmunky

~500 years of Hoplite Fighting and no one does a charge? Rofl.

I'm sure Phalangites in their years did it as well.

I just mean that is was rather an exception then a common thing as it puts the formation at risk.

Yet yourself provide a historical case where hoplites charged at the enemy. Herodotus himself said, in his account, that the "Athenians were the first to introduce the custom of charging the enemy at a run" on this occassion... and that happened more than 200 years before our timeframe.

The historians were amazed at the distance the athenians charged, considering the panoply they had on them. Most of the time, the phalanxes would build momentum at a fast but steady pace, and only on the last meters make a full charge against the enemy hoping to break the enemy with the momentum already built.

We are trying to represent an alternative to be used when some minor gaps would have opened in the shield wall, during the last meters of the charge, and we are trying to portrait that with this animation.

Yes, though I take the way that he ment they charged to avoid the arrows and before impact they halted and reformed the Phalanx.

And again it shows its and exception rather then the usual.

Well, that's the thing. We cannot fine-tune the game to utilize one charging animation for one formation, and another for another formation. We cannot make the engine calculate how much space there is between one individual soldier and another. Yet, for that reason we will scrap this animation? Because fo that reasoning, we should also scrap another animation where the hoplite finishes off an opponent with the buttspike, because that animation, despite being historical, needs some space to change the direction of the spear, and your reasoning is that in a shield wall there wasn't space to use the doru like that.

If its unhistorical then scrap it, as simple as that.

Ofcourse you could use a butt pike but not underhand in an charge, its just not practical when you look at space and time needed to perform such a thing, even if the shieldwall is inperfect.

Where did I said that? That's a straw man argument.

I usually stop debating when fallacies start to become involved like in this case, and this won't be the exception.

You just did it again, the shieldwall isn't perfect so some soldiers supposedly charge and put their allies at risk?

And strawman?

There is literature which suggests this ranging from Homer to Xenophon: http://books.google.com/books?id=6HX...charge&f=false

That's just a quick google search.

Once again it immplies an exception rather then the common.

**antisocialmunky** · 10-12-2009, 04:00

Man, you are such a buzz kill. :-p

**Knight of Ne** · 10-12-2009, 16:19

LOL, all this hassle over a simple animation that makes a cool change now and again. I really don't see what the hassle is.

P.S. I really love that animation, the amount of thought thats gone in to it is brilliant. Great work.

Knight of Ne =)

**Phalanx300** · 10-12-2009, 18:34

Yes it sure is an nice and impressive animation, I'm just thinking its more fancy then practical in Phalanx warfare.

Man, you are such a buzz kill. :-p

Well I just argue because I care about the mod =P.

That reminds me we should have EB multiplayer match sometime again :P.

**Ludens** · 10-12-2009, 20:34

Originally Posted by Phalanx300

I just mean that is was rather an exception then a common thing as it puts the formation at risk.

The exception of Marathon was that the charge was carried out over such a long distance, not that it was carried out at all. In his discussion on the myths of hoplite warfare, Hans van Wees does not even debate whether hoplites charged: all his attention goes to establishing how they charged.

You just did it again, the shieldwall isn't perfect so some soldiers supposedly charge and put their allies at risk?

And strawman?

The strawman being that no-one claimed hoplites left the formation. Rather, the formation was looser than you imply and some individual soldiers would have had the space to execute this manoeuvre during the charge.

Off course, if the team goes with a dense hoplite phalanx (something that is debatable: the above-mentioned Van Wees argues that hoplite formation was looser than that in EB), then yes, the inclusion of this animation is questionable.

**Parallel Pain** · 10-12-2009, 20:58

On the last motion when the hoplite goes back to overhand,

Wouldn't it be quite hard to do that because the spear would get caught in the enemy formation? like knock into some enemy shield and stuff.

**Phalanx300** · 10-12-2009, 21:18

Originally Posted by Parallel Pain

On the last motion when the hoplite goes back to overhand,

Wouldn't it be quite hard to do that because the spear would get caught in the enemy formation? like knock into some enemy shield and stuff.

Well yeah and then the enemy coming forward at the same time and with your allies in your back.

The strawman being that no-one claimed hoplites left the formation. Rather, the formation was looser than you imply and some individual soldiers would have had the space to execute this manoeuvre during the charge.

Off course, if the team goes with a dense hoplite phalanx (something that is debatable: the above-mentioned Van Wees argues that hoplite formation was looser than that in EB), then yes, the inclusion of this animation is questionable.

Then I gues it all comes down to how dense the Phalanx would be.

And even then such animations for reasons above would be near-impossible to do. Especially with both lines charging at full speed.

And I'll see if I can find something on that Van Wees guy.

**antisocialmunky** · 10-13-2009, 01:49

I am however a little curious how feasible it is physically though and it would be unpleasant for the guy behind you. Not really an issue for loose formation though.

**mountaingoat** · 10-13-2009, 12:39

maybe some people can field test this

**Parallel Pain** · 10-13-2009, 19:40

I think the formation is loose enough during the charge (when the formation is bound to break up a bit) to carry out the move. But logically assuming that the two sides make contact during the "thrust" animation, then the enemy and his shield wall obviously isn't too far in front.
Since, as already pointed out, the recovery must be parallel and can not angle or you'll hit the leg of the guy on the right, the spear is extending it's maximum combat length (4 to 6 feet?) out from the hand. I would think then a feet or two would get caught in the enemy formation.

Though maybe the hand can be pulled back far enough to allow the withdraw. Need an actual spear to test that.

Considering that people were shorter back then, a hoplite using a longer spear trying to carry out that move would also have to be careful that his spear doesn't get stuck in the ground when withdrawing, loosing time when the formation would be closing up.