Neda...

[Whacker]

I am still wavering about watching.

As somebody once said (a poet? A priest?): of all the days, the day of your death is the most sacred.

There is a certain sacred intimacy to somebody's dying moments. I am not sure I want to intrude upon it.

There are many reasons to do watch it. Amongst others, Iranians risk everything to make and distribute these videos. Am I disrespectful by knowing but not watching?


This was one of the longest posts I've ever written, in a stream of consciousness to dwarf Joyce, until my computer ate it. The above two sentences will have to make do.

I wouldn't watch it if I were you.

Disclaimer, I did, partially on accident. My extreme curiosity has made me see things on the internet that I will regret watching the rest of my life, and sometimes do very much haunt me. I have woken up from nightmares in cold sweats before from the things I've seen, and I'm not joking or being overly dramatic.

I think not watching carries no stigma whatsoever, nor is it disrespectful in any way, shape, or form to her memory or the cause that she's come to symbolize. Forcing yourself to watch won't give you any greater insight or depth, or ability to intelligently discuss the situation.

My $0.02 USD.

[Fragony]

Nono, Fragony, I would do that if the opposition outright demanded it, but otherwise it is their revolution and as has been said, it could easily be taken the wrong way.

Maybe but we want it gone regardless no, might be being overly hawkish here but regime change wouldn't hurt. Don't seem too popular anyway.

[KukriKhan]

rather pointless

Really? I thought you were volunteering to do some recon work before we send in US tanks, etc.

It's only a 7-hour flight; you could fly out this evening, arrive tomorrow morning, check out the real situation on the ground, visit Neda's house and family, maybe meet with a mullah or two, and be back home, letting us know what the deal is by Tuesday. I applaud your courage.

[Fragony]

edit, that was more then a little bit stupid I hope I got it in time.

[Cute Wolf]

Actually, every goverments have their rights to protect their authority, but sometimes, they pressed too far... Public execution as this aren't necessary... they just made the autorithy image fall... this case of Neda is the perfect example

[KukriKhan]

edit, that was more then a little bit stupid I hope I got it in time.

I no longer have the ability to retrieve your pre-edit remarks (Moderators can, but I gave up the robes to walk and talk among the mortals). So, I imagine your words might have been critical of my post which you maybe imagine as facetious. If that's the case, let me be clear:

I will meet you there. In Tehran. I am on your side on the Neda issue; I see a people enslaved to a regime and a governmental concept that requires the abject humiliation, degradation, harm and death of those not in power, to preserve that power.

It is wrong, and words fail to express the bile-full level of disgust and revulsion I feel; and the resolve that "Dammit, somebody hasta do something".

I'm just suggesting that, before we send our sons and grandsons into battle, we be willing to fight those battles ourselves, personally. Internet support is nice, but not enough, compared to the patriots risking their lives on the streets of Tehran, where that country's history will be decided.

They're a proud folk, those Persians. And they have kicked religious butt before. Let's see if they still wanna, in pursuit of freedom.

[InsaneApache]

Blimey.

[Louis VI the Fat]

Seven handshakes. They say everybody is connected to everybody on the planet, no more than seven handshakes removed.

Neda Agha Soltan was helped by a doctor. This doctor is Arash Hejazi, he is seen in the video. Arash Hejazi is a friend of Paolo Coelho. Paolo Coelho is a Brazilian novelist who lives in Saint-Martin, Southwest France. Where he lives not far from 'x', or so x told to 'y' - who is a friend of mine!!

Five links. If x has ever shook hands with Coelho, that makes it only five handshakes to Neda.

[Fragony]

They're a proud folk, those Persians. And they have kicked religious butt before. Let's see if they still wanna, in pursuit of freedom.

Yes they do https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BtKshycrCrs

These people are out natural allies, want that moderate islam europe, well there it is. With helping them we are also helping ourselves because we remove the political islam's self-proclaimed legitimacy, save the muslims from the mullah's, perfection.

If the Iranian army is too busy being shot to pieces, who's going to stop them.

edit: http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/middle_east/8122871.stm

pssssst Brown, don't want to be a wormtongue but someone thinks you are a wuss

[HopAlongBunny]

Is this the beginning of an International Brigade for the Iranian Revolution?

The spirit that ignited Spain still lives! Do you need words or sheet music for The Internationale?

[Meneldil]

If there's one thing people should have learnt since 1789, it's to not intervene when people are making a revolution in their own country.
Best way to turn the conflict into an endless and bitter civil war that will still have political effects in 300 years.

If the Iranians cannot fight off their government by themselves, then it sadly means the revolution was doomed from the start.
A revolution is one of the most important event that may happen to a country. It has to be 'pure', it has to be regarded as a great(est) achievement. It has to be the fight of a people against its tyrannic rulers. It's by no means the business of the US, the EU, China or anyone else.
I trully wish them the best of luck. Something potentially huge is happening in Iran. But this is their fight, not ours.

[Fragony]

Something potentially huge is happening in Iran. But this is their fight, not ours.

Ya got a little ahead of myself, your right

[Louis VI the Fat]

If there's one thing people should have learnt since 1789, it's to not intervene when people are making a revolution in their own country.

What of foreign intervention in the Revolution of 1776?

[Lemur]

What of foreign intervention in the Revolution of 1776?

If the Iranians send the equivalent of John Adams and Thomas Jefferson to request our intervention, I'm sure we can work something out. What we should never, ever do is intervene without a clear local mandate.

[KukriKhan]

If the Iranians send the equivalent of John Adams and Thomas Jefferson to request our intervention, I'm sure we can work something out. What we should never, ever do is intervene without a clear local mandate.

Agreed.

-edit-
and a solid plan for entry and exit, with timelines.

[Whacker]

@ Lemur and Kukri

In this instance, I gotta respectfully disagree.

This is Iran's fight, and the Iranian people as a whole need to figure out how and where they want to go in this world. We need to stay out of this one, not only because it's not our fight, but we need to undo a lot of the damage that Bush et al did to our global reputation in the past 8 years, specifically that we can't keep our noses out of other sovereign nation's business. If some duder comes over here and asks for help, then I'll give him a good warm meal, bind up his wounds, give him a dry place to sleep for a night, and then politely tell him he has my thoughts and moral support before shaking his hand and sending him back (if he wants to go back).

While the references to the American revolution are very thought provoking, I think the general scenarios and situations are vastly different. As such my opinion stands. I truly wish them all the best of luck and hope they can figure this out with an absolute minimum of violence and bloodshed. IF they manage to pull this off, then I think their Iraqi neighbors could stand to learn a very good lesson from this, about self actualization and what it means and takes to live free.

[Meneldil]

What of foreign intervention in the Revolution of 1776?

1776 was a war as much as it was a revolution. France helped with the war part, and only when asked clearly, after it became clear that a victory was possible.
Tbh, there's little similarities between 1776 and the current protests in Iran IMHO.

[miotas]

I just watched the video and felt nothing. Sure it's a terrible loss of life, but I find it hard to feel anything for people that I don't know. They are just images on a screne to me. Someone I don't know killed someone I will never meet in a situation I can do nothing about I just can't muster up any feelings, and I don't see why I should worry myself.

[LittleGrizzly]

TBH same here miotas, i can watch hundreds slughtered on TV without much feeling, logically i know its a waste and terrible for all her loved ones... emotionally the event is removed from me and me from it...

I always figured i was just a bit of a cold person... or maybe your a cold hearted person too miotas

That being said get me watching a character in a move or something and build the person up to me (add a few joints) then kill them in some tragic or heroic way and ill blubber like a little girl... only when im by myself... don't tell anyone okay ?

[Fragony]

You don't understand what's going on there, this could be just as important as the collapse of the wall.

[LittleGrizzly]

Its not that its not important, I think it is or hope it could be. I just don't really get an emotional attachment to people i don't know...

[Husar]

and build the person up to me (add a few joints)

So you have more feelings for spider people?

[Prodigal]

Read through most of the posts, & no her life is not worth more than any others. Which does raise the valid question, why all the attention?

She is almost certainly being used symbolically due to her being young, female & dressed in a manner that a vast majority of the people on the planet can relate to.

This ticks a lot of boxes that people anywhere can empathise with; she's pretty, young, she could be your sister, your girlfriend, or just someone who didn't deserve to get shot in the neck for no reason. Sure this sort of stuff happens alot everyday, everywhere, but what is happening in Iran isn't your everyday run of the mill sheet.

If you haven't seen the vid of her looking toward the camera while dieing and bleeding out, I wouldn't recommend it. But if you're over 16 and cannot undertand what all the fuss is about, take a look on liveleak; it should still be there.

[LittleGrizzly]

So you have more feelings for spider people?

What I meant was build up an emotional attachment to the character and if im stoned...

[Louis VI the Fat]

Ahmadinejad asks Judiciary to solve Neda Agha-Soltan murder case
Tehran Times Political Desk

TEHRAN -- Iranian President Mahmoud Ahmadinejad has asked Judiciary Chief Ayatollah Mahmoud Hashemi Shahroudi to thoroughly investigate the “suspicious” murder of Neda Agha-Soltan, who was shot dead in post-election unrest on June 20.

In a letter sent to the Judiciary chief on Monday, Ahmadinejad stated that foreign media outlets and the enemies of the country have used this tragic incident to tarnish the image of the Islamic Republic.

“Thus it is requested that… the Judiciary seriously investigate the murder of the deceased lady and identify the perpetrators of the criminal act and bring them to justice,” part of the letter read

Tehran Times, July 12 (yes).

So I guess Neda's death is an embarrasment to Ahmadinejad then?

I wonder who'll the investigation will name as perpetrator: some British diplomat, a Zionist, or a patsy Iranian law enforcer.

[Louis VI the Fat]

Video?

My insolent computer refuses to play video at the moment. I believe the link above leads to a new video of Neda, which surfaced this weekend. It gives the lie to several previous explanations by the Iranian government.

Iranian government reactions

On June 23, it was reported that government authorities had directed Agha-Soltan's family to remove the black mourning banners from outside their residence in order to prevent the home from becoming a place of pilgrimage.[46]

Iran's ambassador to Mexico, Mohammad Hassan Ghadiri, suggested in an interview that the CIA could have been involved in her death.[47] Ambassaor Ghadiri questioned how the shooting was video taped so effectively, asserting that the incident occurred away from other demonstrations. He also stated that using a woman would be more effective in accomplishing the goals which the CIA is purported to desire.[48]

Ambassador Ghadiri also said Agha-Soltan was shot in the head from behind and that "the bullet that was found in her head was not a bullet that you could find in Iran", contradicting the account of Doctor Hejazi, who said she was shot in the chest from in front, as there was no exit wound.[49] Hejazi is the man seen in the video placing his hands on Agha-Soltan's chest to staunch her bleeding, as described under Circumstances of death. It is noteworthy that the Basij millitant who shot Saeed Hajjarian did not use a gun normally used by Iranian arm forces either.

During his Friday sermon on June 26, the Supreme Leader's appointed speaker Ayatollah Ahmad Khatami said "evidence shows that [protesters] have done it themselves and have raised propaganda against the system."[50] Witnesses at the scene of the shooting said Agha-Soltan was shot by a member of the pro-government Basij militia.

Iran's police chief, brigadier general Ahmadi-Moghaddam told the press on June 30 that the Iranian police and ministry of information filed an arrest warrant for Interpol to arrest Dr. Arash Hejazi, an eyewitness of Neda's death for poisoning the international atmosphere against the Iranian government and telling misinformation to the foreign media about Neda's death.[51] In fact, Dr. Hejazi's name is not in the Interpol's website's wanted list.[52][53]

On July 4, the head of Islamic Republic of Iran Broadcasting, Ezzatollah Zarghami told the press that the videos of Neda's death were all fake and are produced by BBC and CNN.

All these different explanations by different Iranian officials at least tell us two things:

Neda is a continuing embarrasment to the Iranian state.
The Iranian state and its branches are fluid, ridden with strife, competing against one another.

[InsaneApache]

Very sad.

[Louis VI the Fat]

[Ice]

Iran's police chief, brigadier general Ahmadi-Moghaddam told the press on June 30 that the Iranian police and ministry of information filed an arrest warrant for Interpol to arrest Dr. Arash Hejazi, an eyewitness of Neda's death for poisoning the international atmosphere against the Iranian government and telling misinformation to the foreign media about Neda's death.[51] In fact, Dr. Hejazi's name is not in the Interpol's website's wanted list.[52][53]

Good for Interpol. Like I've previously said, I hope for young Iranians this is the start of a new beginning.

[Fragony]

muha