Hoplitai too weak ?

[gja102]

Another thing you've got to remember about hoplites in EB is that a lot of them get quite generous morale and stamina bonuses. The stamina in particular gives them good staying power, and means that they'll usually only be 'winded' by the time the enemy are 'tired', so in the long run they will win a grinding attrition battle (like they're supposed to).

Regarding the Spartans, they don't have the best weapon stats but they do get a huge stamina bonus. I started a KH game and I was predisposed towards hating the Spartans (in my ill-informed mind they were arrogant, conservative, backwards, inefficient, hollywood-friendly, overhyped, irritating child-murderers, and yes I know my opinion isn't necessarily accurate so please don't pull me up on it, it was just my general feeling). After a few battles, though, even I had to concede that they were one of the best units in the game. If you have two units of Spartans you can take all but the best-defended city. Narrow streets means they can't be outflanked, and their world-class stamina means they'll never tire of killing (especially if you rest one unit while the other fights). They won't win a battle quickly, but in the long run the enemy will collapse from exhaustion and rout. To a lesser extent, this applies to all hoplites in EB. They're murderously stubborn.

[ARCHIPPOS]

in my ill-informed mind they were arrogant, conservative, backwards, inefficient, hollywood-friendly, overhyped, irritating child-murderers, and yes I know my opinion isn't necessarily accurate so please don't pull me up on it, it was just my general feeling).

hah in my ill-informed mind they stand as pretty much the same... sure they were tougher to crack than 98% of all hoplites around but still they fared very low in the quantity/quality ratio which in the end makes all the difference in strategic terms ...

[Maion Maroneios]

They're murderously stubborn.

This sums up the nature of hoplites in EB perfectly. Murderously stubborn. Sometimes my guys simply refuse to break, even when facing the toughest of situations. Lately, I fought a sandwitched bridge battle against 2 armies. The main one came head-on, while a smaller one had to cross a bridge to get to me. I had my hoplites in shieldwall formation facing the bridge, and they absorbed the oncoming Galatian troops (which included a unit of the fearsome Tindanotae and one of Kuarothoroi) pretty smoothly (meaning no guys flying around and no chaos amongst the lines). Even with guard mode on, they seemed to hold on forever while loosing minimal men themselves. Only when I took them off guard mode and they started pushing forwards did thet loose men at a higher rate than before (but that was also probably because they were already tiring by that time).

To cut a long story short, Hoplitai and generally hoplites are one of my favourite units in EB. They have good armour and shield values, good morale and discipline, and their closely-packed formation and spears make them an excellent counter-cavalry force as well. They just have to be used correctly. I personally use them on each end of my main phalanx line composed of phalangites, and they've never dissapointed me. On the contrary, their abilities as never cease to impress me on several occasions even after a long time of playing EB and using them in my armies.

Maion

[lionhard]

I just watched a thing on great commander (alexander the great) it goes thru the whole army and says that the pikes were 20 m long and rather than hoplites being a more of a defencive formation the phalanx was more like an offensive and was like a tank rolling over the enemy, most of the enemy were killed before even reaching the macedonians holding the phalanx's. Except in the battle of issus darius had his whole cavalry charge alexanders left flank and things got a bit hectic so thats why alexander had to turn back rather than persue darius.

Phalanx is deffo more effective but as i was getting at earlier hoplites had been the classical way in which greece fought as we all know, they were around for a very long time. where as the phalanx was introduced by philip father of alexander and died out when the romans took over 200 years later.

So in theory the hoplite formation was around for like over 1000 years they used it back when greece was 1 big nation when they defeated the trojans.

Where as the phalanx was around for like 300 years. Sad really because i wuv phalanx's :(

[Maion Maroneios]

back when greece was 1 big nation when they defeated the trojans

I'm sorry but this was wrong and very historically inaccurate. Greece was never a unified nation, I'm afraid. That would come much, much later.

Maion

[A Very Super Market]

Phalangites didn't really die out anyways. Pikemen essentially recreate the Macedonian phalanx.

[Satyros]

I should probably point out that at the time of the trojan war the hoplite phalanx tactics were not the norm I think . I don't know if they even existed , but I'm not a history buff so feel free to enlighten us all you history experts .

This is if we are talking about the Mycenean ( sp? ) kingdom and allied poleis .

I have read ( and by all means correct me if I am wrong ) that then the spear was held with both arms .

Also Homer ( who is said to have lived live centuries after the Trojan war ) indicates that chariots were being used , and there is a finding of that era , an bronze armor presumably of a chariot's passenger , the armor of Δενδρών ( sorry don't even know how to write this in English , help guys ) that indicates that a rather different way of fighting was used at that time , the armor being many overlaping bronze rings that covered most of the body , a sort of " full plate "armor of the time .

It is also presumed , that the soldiers were mixed regiments of archers and spearmen , again based on Homer's account of battles .

Of course Homer cannot be accepted as a verified historical source , but still the findings of the era can point to certain conclusions .

Any clarifications/corrections on the historical mess I presented welcome .

Satyros

[antisocialmunky]

Dendra Panapoly...

[Satyros]

Thanks mate .

Stupid me , I guess . heh .

Cheers .

Satyros

[Watchman]

Nobody really knows what the Dendra panoply was for though, or even how common such outfits were. Theories I've seen range from straight-up defensive gear for a chariot spearman, to a "mark of rank" of a senior leader too elderly to fight anymore but quite capable of standing off to the side as a kind of living standard, to a harness for use in duels on foot - the thing actually bears surprising amount of resemblance to Medieval plate harnesses designed for that purpose and apparently practical tests with a repro suggest it'd work, and it'd fit the "heroic" warrior aristocrat thing the Myceneans had going...
*shrug*

[Macilrille]

I just watched a thing on great commander (alexander the great) it goes thru the whole army and says that the pikes were 20 m long and rather than hoplites being a more of a defencive formation the phalanx was more like an offensive and was like a tank rolling over the enemy, most of the enemy were killed before even reaching the macedonians holding the phalanx's. Except in the battle of issus darius had his whole cavalry charge alexanders left flank and things got a bit hectic so thats why alexander had to turn back rather than persue darius.

Phalanx is deffo more effective but as i was getting at earlier hoplites had been the classical way in which greece fought as we all know, they were around for a very long time. where as the phalanx was introduced by philip father of alexander and died out when the romans took over 200 years later.

So in theory the hoplite formation was around for like over 1000 years they used it back when greece was 1 big nation when they defeated the trojans.

Where as the phalanx was around for like 300 years. Sad really because i wuv phalanx's :(

A few comments ijn my drunken stupor.

TV as a source, NO GO!!!

20 m. long pikes???

The sarissae was 6- 7 m long, the later medeival pikes 5-6 and wielded differently.

[Watchman]

He seems to be getting his scales confused... I hear the Successors did experiment with sarissae a whopping 21'/7m long, but those proved nigh-unmanageable. Anyway, AFAIK under Philip and Alexander the things were still in their "growth phase" - starting out at something like about 4m early on and gradually growing ever longer as the troops got better at managing them and the limits of the "impenetrable spear-wall" concept were pushed further.

Anyway, the Medieval pikes were AFAIK more or less very much an independent developement, an outgrowth of the the ubiquitous infantry longspear, and in practice used nigh-identically to the ancient sarissas - there's only so many ways you can handle a six-meter flagpole with a knife on top. Though I understand the Medieval pikemen, besides obviously not carrying shields like the phalangites did, did employ a wider variety of "grips" - a "reverse grip" at shoulder height being apparently quite common and regarded as optimal for certain tasks (IIRC, for attacking infantry).
What the Medieval pikemen did differently was drill and tactics. The Macedonian pike phalanx more or less grew out of the classic hoplite linear tactics as the "anvil" that pinned down the enemy infantry centre for the heavy-cavalry "hammer" to destroy; the Swiss for most intents and purposes didn't have shock cavalry, and duly developed their pike tactics and drills with offensive in mind from the ground up. They also did away with the flank issue by the expedient of operating in large hollow squares, with integrated ranged and close-assault support.

[Macilrille]

WM, I am drunk and have a hellish headache, so no elaborate explanations from me for once, but you are right on point with your elaboration.

[Apázlinemjó]

This sums up the nature of hoplites in EB perfectly. Murderously stubborn. Sometimes my guys simply refuse to break, even when facing the toughest of situations. Lately, I fought a sandwitched bridge battle against 2 armies. The main one came head-on, while a smaller one had to cross a bridge to get to me. I had my hoplites in shieldwall formation facing the bridge, and they absorbed the oncoming Galatian troops (which included a unit of the fearsome Tindanotae and one of Kuarothoroi) pretty smoothly (meaning no guys flying around and no chaos amongst the lines). Even with guard mode on, they seemed to hold on forever while loosing minimal men themselves. Only when I took them off guard mode and they started pushing forwards did thet loose men at a higher rate than before (but that was also probably because they were already tiring by that time).

To cut a long story short, Hoplitai and generally hoplites are one of my favourite units in EB. They have good armour and shield values, good morale and discipline, and their closely-packed formation and spears make them an excellent counter-cavalry force as well. They just have to be used correctly. I personally use them on each end of my main phalanx line composed of phalangites, and they've never dissapointed me. On the contrary, their abilities as never cease to impress me on several occasions even after a long time of playing EB and using them in my armies.

Maion

And let's not forget they are quite invulnerable to arrows too.

[Cute Wolf]

From reading all the previous posts I diagnose that most of the "Hoplite complainers" are using "the -4 attack to spear units 'fix' that's not a fix anyway", since that 'fix' are greatly made hoplites suffer... just revert back to default EB 1.2 EDU values and i guarantee that you'll be statisfied with your hoplites...

And about Spartans, I personally mod them in my game to have 2 Hp, 5095 cost, 873 upkeep, and 2 turns training... no wonder, they become the strongest units in the game... but that's because I love my Spartans... not because historical corectness...

[Constantius III]

And about Spartans, I personally mod them in my game to have 2 Hp, 5095 cost, 873 upkeep, and 2 turns training... no wonder, they become the strongest units in the game... but that's because I love my Spartans... not because historical corectness...

I'm sure Akrotatos and his Spartan bodyguards could have used you when he died in a fruitless assault on Megalopolis in, you know, real history.

[Cute Wolf]

I'm sure Akrotatos and his Spartan bodyguards could have used you when he died in a fruitless assault on Megalopolis in, you know, real history.

If I was there, I'll gladlyy made Akrotatos a prototype cannons and gunpowders when they asked... (just mix saltpeter with coal dusts and some sulphur...) and I was sure that Spartan hoplite will be armed with personal gatling guns!

Heheheh... that's because I was used to play Vanilla that praise Spartans in really high place... actually, when playing as GCS in vanilla long - long time ago, I remove the and hidden resources sparta... and my wholesale armies are those 2 Hp spartans in reds...!!!! This is Sparta...

But even in my modded EB, I could defeat those Spartans monsters with Agrianai Pelekephoroi...

[Maion Maroneios]

And about Spartans, I personally mod them in my game to have 2 Hp,

OK, that's something I would personally never do for example. This is grand cheating at it's top.

Maion

[Cute Wolf]

OK, that's something I would personally never do for example. This is grand cheating at it's top.

Maion

At least I also fight them when I play as Makedon... Naturally, my Hetairoi wouldn't kill those spartans in some charges from the back, or Argyraspidai skewer them with just taking minimal casualities... now they killed each other better and won by a close margin... that's the spirit...

That's cheating when you turn them to 1 hp when play against them

[Maion Maroneios]

I believe you fail to understand that 30+ armour, excellent morale, immense stamina and 2HP on top of that makes them virtually unstoppable. Also, your mind seems to still be floating in the times of the 5th century BC, then the Agoge was much harsher than it was 2 centuries later. Spartans were over their golden age, get over it.

Maion