Hoplitai too weak ?

[Geticus]

Errrr..Epaminondas basicly used the same methods first used by Pagondas at Delium only somewhat further developed. It wasn't that revolutionary.

Point conceded, I didn't know (or had long since forgotten not being much of a Peloponnesian War buff) about that one. Do you know if the attack there was oblique with the deep Theban right leading ahead of the others? On cursory inspection it is not clear.

[ARCHIPPOS]

bc the hoplites fought holding their shield with their left arm and their spear with their right , the battleline's right flank was considered exposed and thus "weaker"... bc it presented a shieldless undefended far edge ... right flank=hoplite battleline's weakest point...

to make up for this "right-wing weakness" commanders would deploy their better trained,armoured hoplite contigents on the right , thus reducing the risk of the right flank collapsing (=major screwup)... for example when fighting along with their allies , the Spartans would typicaly assume the right ...

however BOTH battlelines would typicaly have their elites deployed on their respective right flanks... in battle after the initial stages and when OTHISMOS(=the push effect) kicked in it was very common for the rightflanker "badasses" to respectively push the less reliable hoplites standing on the enemy battleline's left (confused yet???better check the below sketch)



so the clashing hoplite battlelines would start to "rotate" around their centres... in an "anti-clockwise" movement (as shown in phase III of the scheme)...how long could this rotation last was a question of both leftflankers' ability to maintain their cohesion against the elites...
if the left-flankers broke they would be hunted down for a while and then the pursuing elites would turn and manouveur themselves against the enemy centre eventualy ripping the enemy battleline apart...

it was also very typical for hoplitebattles for both rightflankers (say Atheneans and Spartans) to push through against the enemy left... the battle then became a question of who would rip through the enemy battleline first...

Epaminondas simply capitulated on the "rotation" angle... he must have realised that the battleline's ability to absorb "othismos" pressure and rotate (instead of breaking) was limited ... that is the underlying principle of Epaminonda's "oblique formation"

[Celtic_Punk]

Almost like the Kiwi's push tactic in rugby!

[ARCHIPPOS]

i wouldn't now man i come from a "football" not a "rugby" country

[Celtic_Punk]

all forms of football (with the exception of the gaelic derivative) blow hard. American football sucks because of all the start and stopping ( WHY DO YOU STOP AFTER THE TACKLE!!! THE GAME IS JUST BEGINNING! RUCK OVER THAT!!!!) And footy... well lets just say when you watch grown men kick each other in the shins and they all cry for twenty minutes and then all of a sudden they hop up and are ready for the free kick... no amount of Italians head butting each other makes up for that kind of shiite.

[Dutchhoplite]

Point conceded, I didn't know (or had long since forgotten not being much of a Peloponnesian War buff) about that one. Do you know if the attack there was oblique with the deep Theban right leading ahead of the others? On cursory inspection it is not clear.

When i read de description of Delium would'nt say that the Theban right is leading. Almost from the beginning there is fighting along the whole front line and this would'nt be the case if Pagondas would have held his weak left back.