Hoplitai too weak ?

[Mediteran]

Fine ^^ Is it really fine that the strongest warriors of the ancient era, the spartans, are loosing against a half naked barbarain sword unit.

actually, they were not the strongest in that period. 200 years ago? maybe


and also, i find they are pretty good in game anyway

[Flavius_Belisarius]

Thanks for the numerous informations. So when i fight with Hoplitais i have to switch to guard mode and let them stay.

One of you mentioned that Hoplitais are was more flexible than phalangitais, but thats a bit crappy, phalangitais were way more flexible because hoplitais formation was only a long slow unflexible line. Phalangitais formation was divided in many smaller squares.

actually, they were not the strongest in that period. 200 years ago? maybe


and also, i find they are pretty good in game anyway

I know but this is Sparta.

[Apázlinemjó]

Thanks for the numerous informations. So when i fight with Hoplitais i have to switch to guard mode and let them stay.

One of you mentioned that Hoplitais are was more flexible than phalangitais, but thats a bit crappy, phalangitais were way more flexible because hoplitais formation was only a long slow unflexible line. Phalangitais formation was divided in many smaller squares.



I know but this is Sparta.

Spartan Hoplites weren't that special.

[Mediteran]

I know but this is Sparta.

ah, how i wish the movie 300 didnt come out

[Fluvius Camillus]

Theban Sacred band is stronger than those Spartan weaklings anyway....

I find hoplites excellent in killing generals, a few cheap hoplitai hapoloi are good enough to bring down Somatophylakes Strategou..

~Fluvius

[Watchman]

The hoplites make for good heavy spearmen with a decent cost-efficiency ratio. Which is as it should be. When you really get down to it they were nothing more and nothing less than a local version of the pretty much universal "shieldwall" principle, and TBH their track record against many other patterns of period "shock" infantry isn't actually even very good.

[Flavius_Belisarius]

ah, how i wish the movie 300 didnt come out

lol I dont like the movie 300 by the way. I know that Spartans werent that special but i think they are simply to expensive and i love the sentence "THIS IS SPARTA".

[Macilrille]

Now Flav B, understand please that this is no slight or insult to you. But...

How many times every month does some noob show up saying that this and that unit is too strong/too weak/unrealistic/whatever without knowing tha system and having much experience in it, and its balance?

When you have been here for a while, which I hope you will be, you will understand what I mean.

That said, welcome to the EB Forum, a wonderful world of historical and EB nerdness :-)

[Flavius_Belisarius]

Now Flav B, understand please that this is no slight or insult to you. But...

How many times every month does some noob show up saying that this and that unit is too strong/too weak/unrealistic/whatever without knowing tha system and having much experience in it, and its balance?

When you have been here for a while, which I hope you will be, you will understand what I mean.

That said, welcome to the EB Forum, a wonderful world of historical and EB nerdness :-)

I understand you but quite sure that im not a noob, even on Eb which i didnt play for a long time yet. But i already had several Mp battles, and there Hoplitais were completly useless. Hoplitais couldnt face Phalangits, or other infantery units with sword, axe etc. And even against cavalry they werent really effectiv. Yes in a longer melee but if you play against a human who charges and retreats and so on, then hoplitais were useless. In my opinion they should be at least cheaper, especially the spartan and the armored elite hoplitai.

But i dont know how it is in campaign, i hardly every played it yet but i will try it. ;)

Edit.:

@Mikhail Mengsk

My english isnt the best but what i wanted to say was that in real Phalangits were way more flexible than normal hoplitai, and anybody asserted the opposite of this which is totaly false. :)

Here a picture. The reason why the hoplitai formation was so inflexible is that the whole formation was a long line, if this line breaks on one part, the whole battle was almost lost. The macedonian phalanx was quite flexible because they phalangits where subdivided in many squares. But after the dead of alexander the phalangits got more armor and they formed back to more like a line like the classical hoplitais which made them almost as unflexible.

[option]

lol I dont like the movie 300 by the way. I know that Spartans werent that special but i think they are simply to expensive and i love the sentence "THIS IS SPARTA".

Plus, anyone who needs further proof of Spartan ownage should watch Deadliest Warrior: Spartan vs. Ninja. THAT is seriously awesome.

[ARCHIPPOS]

i hear they're preparing a Predator vs Spartans sequel... supposedly Predators kidnap a whole mora of spartans to use as prey

[Mikhail Mengsk]

One of you mentioned that Hoplitais are was more flexible than phalangitais, but thats a bit crappy, phalangitais were way more flexible because hoplitais formation was only a long slow unflexible line. Phalangitais formation was divided in many smaller squares..

What?!?

[ARCHIPPOS]

OK...
some interesting oppinions...
1)In a head-on phallangites-vs-hoplites collision phalangites prevailed piking hoplites at greater range bc of their longer spears ...
2)However if hoplites managed to hit the pike phallanx from the flanks, things turned more interesting...the reason being that once hoplites get really close with their spears and swords ,pikes became useless... also phallangites were not highly manouvareuble troops...in the time needed for them to redeploy facing the enemy,lower their pikes and form the pike wall they would be stabbed and cut in droves...

the idea of hoplites AND phallangites though is that they should be used as TIME-BUYERS... they hold the enemy pinned for a while ,so you can manouveur and outflank your opponent...

[Watchman]

AFAIK it was actually quite impossible for a block of phalangites to "change facing" to bring their pikes to bear against an enemy gnawing at the flank - ie. they had to drop pikes and pull sidearms to defend themselves, or get killed with impunity. And their backup gear and training wasn't quite the best around for regular hand-to-hand fighting...

[ARCHIPPOS]

AFAIK it was actually quite impossible for a block of phalangites to "change facing" to bring their pikes to bear against an enemy gnawing at the flank - ie. they had to drop pikes and pull sidearms to defend themselves, or get killed with impunity. And their backup gear and training wasn't quite the best around for regular hand-to-hand fighting...

good point... so once the hoplites made contact from the flanks Phallangites where done for... which i suppose made securing the flanks with some decent hoplites/thyreoforoi/thorakitai ever the more important...