Hoplitai too weak ?

**Phalanx300** · 06-27-2009, 18:37

Originally Posted by Watchman

Dude. The hoplite aspis was single-ply wood with a millimeter-thin stressed bronze covering. For the sake of comparision the Italic scuta were three-ply wood with a hide covering on both sides, which is around as strong as wooden shields now realistically get - and weighed a ton.
Pila, far as I know, holed scuta readily enough - what do you *think* the Italians had mainly been throwing them at for centuries ?

Are you now saying that the Scutum was thicker then the Aspis? The Hoplite shield is probably the thickest shield ever, why do you think it weighted around 10kg?

**Watchman** · 06-27-2009, 18:58

Originally Posted by Phalanx300

Are you now saying that the Scutum was thicker then the Aspis? The Hoplite shield is probably the thickest shield ever, why do you think it weighted around 10kg?

Now you're just talking out of your arse, mate. Go read.

TL;DR - the aspis averaged around 15 pounds weight (ca. 7 kg) and 0.2" (ca. 5 mm, calculating in my head) thick; the scutum, depending heavily on specific model and period, was 15-22 pounds (7-11 kg) and went from about 0.4" (1 cm) in the center to 0.2" in the edges thick.

"Lick my blinky diodes."
- Aaron Stack, Nextwave

**Phalanx300** · 06-27-2009, 19:05

Originally Posted by Watchman

Now you're just talking out of your arse, mate. Go read.

TL;DR - the aspis averaged around 15 pounds weight (ca. 7 kg) and 0.2" (ca. 5 mm, calculating in my head) thick; the scutum, depending heavily on specific model and period, was 15-22 pounds (7-11 kg) and went from about 0.4" (1 cm) in the center to 0.2" in the edges thick.

"Lick my blinky diodes."
- Aaron Stack, Nextwave

Aspis was a thick layer of poplar wood with a layer of bronze on it, if anything it certainly is the thickest shield, scutum has one holder for your hand which would mean that it shouldn't be too heavy.

Also a Falx was able to penetrate deeply into a Scutum while against an Aspis it definately would have an harder time.

A Pilum penetrating a Aspis is just wishfull fantasy, Scutum wouldn't be able to survive the pushing in the Phalanx as well as an Aspis as well.

5 mm? Maybe that one from Deadliest Warrior or 300 but the real deal definately wasn't that thin.

**Maion Maroneios** · 06-27-2009, 19:09

Originally Posted by Phalanx300

Aspis was a thick layer of poplar wood with a layer of bronze on it, if anything it certainly is the thickest shield, scutum has one holder for your hand which would mean that it shouldn't be too heavy.

Also a Falx was able to penetrate deeply into a Scutum while against an Aspis it definately would have an harder time.

A Pilum penetrating a Aspis is just wishfull fantasy, Scutum wouldn't be able to survive the pushing in the Phalanx as well as an Aspis as well.

5 mm? Maybe that one from Deadliest Warrior or 300 but the real deal definately wasn't that thin.

As much as I'd like to believe either you or Watchman, I've learned to rely on proof. If someone can find some sources on how exactly a scutum and an aspis was made (as well as an average pilum), we could make some comparisons and hopefully derive some results.

And just for the sake of being reasonable, try to back your statements up Phalanx. At least Watchman presents something to back up his statements. I'm not taking enyone's side here, but I prefer someone who actually speculates based on something instead of pure personal unbased oppinion.

Maion

**Watchman** · 06-27-2009, 19:12

*shrug* Teh Wiki isn't feeling helpful on the topic regarding specific references, and that's the extent of effort I'm willing to expend into humoring you. Go read books like I did.

**Phalanx300** · 06-27-2009, 19:14

Originally Posted by Watchman

*shrug* Teh Wiki isn't feeling helpful on the topic regarding specific references, and that's the extent of effort I'm willing to expend into humoring you. Go read books like I did.

Very well, then you start reading some good books.

**Watchman** · 06-27-2009, 19:16

I'm not the one making historically inaccurate claims here you know.

**Maion Maroneios** · 06-27-2009, 19:02

Originally Posted by Phalanx300

Are you now saying that the Scutum was thicker then the Aspis? The Hoplite shield is probably the thickest shield ever, why do you think it weighted around 10kg?

I'm afraid Watchman is right. The aspis though heavy and thick, is not unpenetrable. The force delivered by a falling javelin has to do with the angle thrown (and thus falling), the weight of it and the surface area of the tip. The speed with which it is thrown plays an important role as well. Needless to say, even a well-aimed thick rock (like those fired by the Baelaric slingers) could shatter an aspis I think. That is according to a source from an EB insciption, saying 1,000 Baelaric slingers routed several thousand Greek hoplites. Could be wrong here.

Maion