Hoplitai too weak ?

[Watchman]

Yeah right, try that with a Syntagma. And we're talking of even numbers here dude.

Maion

Syntagmas were the 16x16 man "building blocks" of the pike line, no ? Lessee, that makes about four of them in a round 1,000 man force, and assuming they don't suddenly throw their normal tactical organisation and deployement scheme out of the window, we'll be talking about a total frontage of... about 60-70m (assuming 1m/man) ?

Yeah. The hoplites aren't going to have to thin their ranks out very much to overlap that by a VERY comfortable margin and gobble up the phalangites from the sides.

Sorry, but the pikes lose here. Bring a combined-arms force next time.

[Maion Maroneios]

You do know hoplites have a considerably tighter formation, no? Not to mention the fact that the average phalangites was actually more versatile and considerably better in hand-to-hand combat.

Maion

[Watchman]

You do know hoplites have a considerably tighter formation, no?

...which they can thin out, both in depth and width, quite easily without any meaningful loss of combat effectiveness in the circumstances. One need only look at the Athenian deployement at Marathon for an example - and THAT was long earlier, back when the hoplites were still nigh entirely enthusiastic amateurs ("Sunday soldiers," as the summary often goes) rather than drilled professionals...

Not to mention the fact that the average phalangites was actually more versatile and considerably better in hand-to-hand combat.

And this claim is based on what exactly ? Nevermind that the track record seems to suggest something quite opposite, you know. Issus and the Greek mercs much ?

As I said, its merely an opinion, and individual opinions are worth nothing right?

When they involve gross misuse of a technical term, and tacking prejudiced value judgements onto it, yes.

[Phalanx300]

When they involve gross misuse of a technical term, and tacking prejudiced value judgements onto it, yes.

Indeed Watchman.



More seriously though, every opinion counts, denying that just lead to nasty stuff as dictatorships...

[Maion Maroneios]

And this claim is based on what exactly ? Nevermind that the track record seems to suggest something quite opposite, you know. Issus and the Greek mercs much?

Issus was due to the terrain, and this is only one goddamn example. You want a counter-example? Chaeronia.

Maion

[Watchman]

You want a counter-example? Chaeronia.

...where the potent Macedonian and Thessalian cavalry was present in force on the wings shielding them from encirclement.

Appeal rejected. We're talking of a straight infantry-infantry fight here, remember ?

Issus was due to the terrain, and this is only one goddamn example.

Which does nothing to change the fact the pikemen were promptly in trouble when their normally mutually supporting battleline became disjointed and ceased to be so, allowing dedicated close-combat troops to infiltrate into the flanks of individual syntagmas. A theme, we may note, which keeps repeating itself with a downright depressing regularity whenever phalangites advanced on more mobile infantry.

wait... so why couldn't the phalangitai deploy thin too??? an 8 line depth would double the syntagma front length and project the same amount of lowered pikes no???

*shrug* 16 x 16 was their SOP, far as I know. Not entirely sure of the reasons behind it - I'd have to go read up and don't feel like it ATM - but I'm under the impression they normally didn't stray from the basic deployement pattern. They certainly *could*, in principle at least, but *would* they ?

[Maion Maroneios]

...where the potent Macedonian and Thessalian cavalry was present in force on the wings shielding them from encirclement.

Appeal rejected. We're talking of a straight infantry-infantry fight here, remember ?

Appeal rejected my arse. I'm talking about the ease with which phalangites could hold hoplites at bay. Also, you seem too over-confident with the hoplite's superiority in a same-number fight.

Maion

[Watchman]

Flanks.

Why do I need to keep repeating this ? In Chaeronea this wasn't a problem because of the Mac cavalry arm guarding the wings; but the second hoplites (or legionaries) could get into their "inner flanks", such as at Issus (and any number of battles involving Romans), they were in trouble. God forbid if they were subjected to a true double envelopement, which incidentally is AFAIK what the invading Celts did to the Macs in whatwasitnow, 279BC ?

Also, there's no particular need for the hoplites in our hypothetical "duel" to even maintain a continuous frontage. They only need to send a relatively small force to keep the much more formation-dependent and far less mobile pikemen frontally preoccupied, and then swing around the flanks with the rest.

[ARCHIPPOS]

...which they can thin out, both in depth and width, quite easily without any meaningful loss of combat effectiveness in the circumstances. One need only look at the Athenian deployement at Marathon for an example - and THAT was long earlier, back when the hoplites were still nigh entirely enthusiastic amateurs ("Sunday soldiers," as the summary often goes) rather than drilled professionals...
?

wait... so why couldn't the phalangitai deploy thin too??? an 8 line depth would double the syntagma front length and project the same amount of lowered pikes no???