Hoplitai too weak ?

**Maion Maroneios** · 06-30-2009, 00:14

That's what I mean. Long pikes and peltasts were the banning of old-style hoplites, wether you like it or not. Heavy spearmen with 50kg worth equipment that are just drilled to go forward are less flexible than well-drilled pikemen than can move much faster if the situation asks for it and keep the enemy at bay with the pikes.

Maion

**Watchman** · 06-30-2009, 00:46

Did you geniuses finally COMPLETELY forget the specific scenario we've been discussing this whole fscking time ? 1K pikemen vs 1K hoplites ?
Christ.

Originally Posted by Maion Maroneios

I believe phalangites would win due to more intensive training...

And you believe the phalangites received "more intensive training" in the relevant disciplines - here meaning actual hand-to-hand combat, not pike use - and that this would be enough to offset the advantage the hoplites derived from their specialised fighting gear why exactly ?
Also, from what I recall from reading of the clashes between the Romans and Hellenistic pikemen, it would rather appear the phalangites on the whole were most definitely NOT the equals of close-combat heavy infantry at face-to-face distances.

...the ability to thin out as much as the hoplites could.

Except they can't, you know. If they thin out the ranks too much, there's not enough successive ranks of spears to offer a reliably stopping barrier to the enemy. Plus given their *extreme* dependency on maintaining a rather specific drill and formation it may not be a good idea to alter the formation deployement on the fly to an unfamiliar one.
Also, due to the extreme vulnerability of their flanks the pike-line sub-units *must* stick together for mutual protection, which still leaves the outermost one partially exposed. The hoplites are under no such imperatives. There is no technical reason why they cannot split into as many separate sub-units as they now deem fit, and pretty much run rings around the lumbering pike blocks looking for openings to exploit.

Originally Posted by Celtic_Punk

makedonia won because they had longer spears. the phalangites were a revolution that outdated the classical form of a hoplite! Even numbers on flat terrain Phalangite vs Classical Hoplite = Phalagnite victory

...because they had sufficient cavalry and other combined-arms support, numbnuts. The pike phalangites were a part of a holistic system, and did NOT do very well by themselves.
Which is exactly the hypothetical scenario we're dealing with.
Pay attention dammit.

Originally Posted by Maion Maroneios

Long pikes and peltasts were the banning of old-style hoplites, wether you like it or not.

Only when used properly together alongside with cavalry, which was the Hellenistic armies' primary offensive arm.

Heavy spearmen with 50kg worth equipment that are just drilled to go forward are less flexible than well-drilled pikemen than can move much faster if the situation asks for it and keep the enemy at bay with the pikes.

I've no idea how the fig you ended up with a 50 kg load on the hoplites (plate-clad Medieval knights lugged around under half that...), but clearly you are now wholly - and I rather suspect intentionally - acutely underestimating what shieldwall spearmen can and can't do. For one thing as far as formations go they are FAR less dependent on them than the pikemen, who are nearly useless if out of the ranks; for another, they can wheel and maneuver much more readily and if necessary abandon all semblance of ordered formation in a pinch and still remain reasonably effective combat units.
Pikemen of the Hellenistic pattern, conversely, are very cumbersome on account of the absolute need to maintain orderly rank and file in order to avoid the long pike-shafts getting tangled together in a hopeless log-jam mess. "Moving much faster" you can similarly forget outright; these weren't the Swiss pikemen who could deliver a charge at the run without compromising their formation, but a painfully slow-moving and cumbersome long and deep lines of notoriously poor tactical maneuverability and flexibility.

As for the pikes, they're of any value only to the front. The second foemen get into the side of the pike block, they're as good as dead weight and need to be ditched posthaste out of the way of sidearms and close combat.

**Maion Maroneios** · 06-30-2009, 00:51

How about a nice cup, Watchman?

Maion

**Watchman** · 06-30-2009, 00:55

I'm a teetotaler. And hate it when people start acting stupid and ignoring a little something known in agrarian societies as context.

**Maion Maroneios** · 06-30-2009, 00:59

Originally Posted by Watchman

I'm a teetotaler. And hate it when people start acting stupid and ignoring a little something known in agrarian societies as context.

OK then,

Your babbling is getting me on the nerves. You pretty much screwed the conversation when you started giving us epithets. Plus, I despise know-it-alls and guys who don't respect another man's oppinion. And yes, I'm becoming as arrogant as you've acted in a past thread. Shoo now.

Maion

**Watchman** · 06-30-2009, 01:07

Given that your argumentation has for a while now followed the pattern of "because I say so", I don't really see where *you* get to act all high and mighty.

**Zarax** · 06-30-2009, 01:13

That's just too bad, the thread had a nice argument going on until attitudes set in...
*engaging fire estuinguishing system*

**antisocialmunky** · 06-30-2009, 03:15

Originally Posted by Watchman

Given that your argumentation has for a while now followed the pattern of "because I say so", I don't really see where *you* get to act all high and mighty.

You sir, deserve the most epic balloon...