Hoplitai too weak ?

[Flavius_Belisarius]

Hoplitais are in my opinion too weak. They dont have any chance to win against a phalanx, they dont have any chance to win against heavy infantery and normal hoplitais are way more expensiver. Especially the spartan and armored elite one. I know that spears should be weak against sword and shield units but i thougth that hoplitais are effectiv against such melee combat units because of their phalanx formation.

[mountaingoat]

not sure , i do know that most if not any AP will eat them up ... not much stands in way of the falx though.


they just seem good for holding the line ...

[Mediteran]

i think they are fine as they are..

[Flavius_Belisarius]

Fine ^^ Is it really fine that the strongest warriors of the ancient era, the spartans, are loosing against a half naked barbarain sword unit.

[Celtic_Punk]

what the hell are you talking about? The hoplites are fine. In fact I find they destroy Phalanxes.

[Mediteran]

Fine ^^ Is it really fine that the strongest warriors of the ancient era, the spartans, are loosing against a half naked barbarain sword unit.

actually, they were not the strongest in that period. 200 years ago? maybe


and also, i find they are pretty good in game anyway

[Maion Maroneios]

Hoplitais are in my opinion too weak. They dont have any chance to win against a phalanx, they dont have any chance to win against heavy infantery and normal hoplitais are way more expensiver. Especially the spartan and armored elite one. I know that spears should be weak against sword and shield units but i thougth that hoplitais are effectiv against such melee combat units because of their phalanx formation.

1) Phalangites are supposed to beat Hoplitai
2) Hoplitai are way more flexible than phalangites
3) Hoplitai in guard mode are tanks and can withstand a pike phalanx forever
4) Hoplitai are very cost effective
5) Hoplitai have excellent defense and morale
6) They are not made to withstand heavy/elite/AP infantry
7) Spartiatai and Epilektoi are expensive because they are elite hoplites
8) The phalanx formation has a very specific role: Break the enemy through attrition, not kill them fast

Maion

[Celtic_Punk]

You forgot to mention they aren't weak and don't suck.

I've won countless unwinnable battles by planting regular hoplitai in a road and won against countless stacks just because i had 2 units of hoplites. any other unit and I'd have perished. 2 units against a fullstack. that's not weak in my book.

the fact that you can dictate the shape of the frontline because they have so much pushing capability gives you the advantage to pound with cavalry. I've never lost a field battle as long as I'm not outrageously outnumbered (like 3-4 units vs like 10 phalanx and 5 makedonian cavalry) If you close the distance between pike and man you can destroy a phalanx, just make sure your men get to their shields. You need to flank them though. You must always flank! Kill squads are a favourite tactic of mine. Small experienced bands of mercs you bought ages ago make the best killsquads.

[Phalanx300]

2) Hoplitai are way more flexible than phalangites

I'm personally not so sure of that, when looking at how both Phalanxes work, 8 men applying pushing power against 5 holding them off by just holding onto their spears. It would just be a matter of time before pushing power prevails.

And it always took some special tactic or help to defeat Hoplites, alone I'm not sure they would be able to manage. And the Hoplites fighting under Persia managed to seriously treaten the Phalangites forcing Alexander to charge in.

In short, pushing power vs wooden shafts? I'd give it to the pushing power in the long run.








And I think that Hoplites are indeed to weak as well, not in defensive power but in offensive power, they weren't a static block, they were an offensive block. The Hoplite Phalanx just can't be good enough represented to show its offensive abilities, luckilly in EB2 we will have the Shield Wall automaticly for Hoplites.(Or so a team member once said)

[option]

Yeah, I don't know why you think hoplites should be able to beat phalangites. If that was possible, the Macedonians never would've won Charonea, let alone defeat the Persians.

[antisocialmunky]

Hoplites did stop the phalanx that Issus due to bad terrain.

The main issue in EB is that the hoplite phalanx has no ability to attack in formation, only defend(where its awesome unless AP shows up).

[Flavius_Belisarius]

Thanks for the numerous informations. So when i fight with Hoplitais i have to switch to guard mode and let them stay.

One of you mentioned that Hoplitais are was more flexible than phalangitais, but thats a bit crappy, phalangitais were way more flexible because hoplitais formation was only a long slow unflexible line. Phalangitais formation was divided in many smaller squares.

actually, they were not the strongest in that period. 200 years ago? maybe


and also, i find they are pretty good in game anyway

I know but this is Sparta.

[Apázlinemjó]

Thanks for the numerous informations. So when i fight with Hoplitais i have to switch to guard mode and let them stay.

One of you mentioned that Hoplitais are was more flexible than phalangitais, but thats a bit crappy, phalangitais were way more flexible because hoplitais formation was only a long slow unflexible line. Phalangitais formation was divided in many smaller squares.



I know but this is Sparta.

Spartan Hoplites weren't that special.

[Mediteran]

I know but this is Sparta.

ah, how i wish the movie 300 didnt come out

[Fluvius Camillus]

Theban Sacred band is stronger than those Spartan weaklings anyway....

I find hoplites excellent in killing generals, a few cheap hoplitai hapoloi are good enough to bring down Somatophylakes Strategou..

~Fluvius

[Watchman]

The hoplites make for good heavy spearmen with a decent cost-efficiency ratio. Which is as it should be. When you really get down to it they were nothing more and nothing less than a local version of the pretty much universal "shieldwall" principle, and TBH their track record against many other patterns of period "shock" infantry isn't actually even very good.

[Flavius_Belisarius]

ah, how i wish the movie 300 didnt come out

lol I dont like the movie 300 by the way. I know that Spartans werent that special but i think they are simply to expensive and i love the sentence "THIS IS SPARTA".

[Macilrille]

Now Flav B, understand please that this is no slight or insult to you. But...

How many times every month does some noob show up saying that this and that unit is too strong/too weak/unrealistic/whatever without knowing tha system and having much experience in it, and its balance?

When you have been here for a while, which I hope you will be, you will understand what I mean.

That said, welcome to the EB Forum, a wonderful world of historical and EB nerdness :-)

[Knight of Heaven]

1) Phalangites are supposed to beat Hoplitai
2) Hoplitai are way more flexible than phalangites
3) Hoplitai in guard mode are tanks and can withstand a pike phalanx forever
4) Hoplitai are very cost effective
5) Hoplitai have excellent defense and morale
6) They are not made to withstand heavy/elite/AP infantry
7) Spartiatai and Epilektoi are expensive because they are elite hoplites
8) The phalanx formation has a very specific role: Break the enemy through attrition, not kill them fast

Maion

They are just very good for what they supose to do, in my KH campaing i beat makedonia and èpirus , parcialy only with those haploi, they are very good against any cav, even bodyguard. of course they are levies, but i got some experienced units, mainly my army was composed by generals archers and slingers and hoplitai haploi, and i beat phalanx, is easy actualy just hold the line with the generals and flank then with haploi. Offcourse when i get the chance to recruit hoplitais, i did, and indeed they are tanks if you got at least 4, 5,6 of those you got your self a line who could hold everything. i love those guys actualy, cost efective an very reliable, even against archers.

Hoplitais are in my opinion too weak. They dont have any chance to win against a phalanx, they dont have any chance to win against heavy infantery and normal hoplitais are way more expensiver. Especially the spartan and armored elite one. I know that spears should be weak against sword and shield units but i thougth that hoplitais are effectiv against such melee combat units because of their phalanx formation.

Spartans where special indeed as well their society, very simillar and very diferent in manny ways,compared to other greek societies. And at this time(eb time frame) they were in decline, their empire and their power over the other city states was long gone, still i think Eb is very historical in that issue, spartans at that time were very kowned, and had a great reputation. And if you use spartans in EB after a while they get experience, then they will become exelent units.

If you want to have ivencible spartans then i sugest to play SPQR mod, you ill get spartans who never rout,and fight to the death they are a pain in the asse, in battle you have to kill then all to win.Offcourse the mod is made for a roman campaing not greek one.

[Apázlinemjó]

They are just very good for what they supose to do, in my KH campaing i beat makedonia and èpirus , parcialy only with those haploi, they are very good against any cav, even bodyguard. of course they are levies, but i got some experienced units, mainly my army was composed by generals archers and slingers and hoplitai haploi, and i beat phalanx, is easy actualy just hold the line with the generals and flank then with haploi. Offcourse when i get the chance to recruit hoplitais, i did, and indeed they are tanks if you got at least 4, 5,6 of those you got your self a line who could hold everything. i love those guys actualy, cost efective an very reliable, even against archers.

Spartans where special indeed as well their society, very simillar and very diferent in manny ways,compared to other greek societies. And at this time(eb time frame) they were in decline, their empire and their power over the other city states was long gone, still i think Eb is very historical in that issue, spartans at that time were very kowned, and had a great reputation. And if you use spartans in EB after a while they get experience, then they will become exelent units.

If you want to have ivencible spartans then i sugest to play SPQR mod, you ill get spartans who never rout,and fight to the death they are a pain in the asse, in battle you have to kill then all to win.Offcourse the mod is made for a roman campaing not greek one.

Except AP units.

[Xurr]

I'm personally not so sure of that, when looking at how both Phalanxes work, 8 men applying pushing power against 5 holding them off by just holding onto their spears. It would just be a matter of time before pushing power prevails.

And it always took some special tactic or help to defeat Hoplites, alone I'm not sure they would be able to manage. And the Hoplites fighting under Persia managed to seriously treaten the Phalangites forcing Alexander to charge in.

In short, pushing power vs wooden shafts? I'd give it to the pushing power in the long run.




And I think that Hoplites are indeed to weak as well, not in defensive power but in offensive power, they weren't a static block, they were an offensive block. The Hoplite Phalanx just can't be good enough represented to show its offensive abilities, luckilly in EB2 we will have the Shield Wall automaticly for Hoplites.(Or so a team member once said)

I play using bi.exe and shield wall is the bomb for breaking up Phalangites, they'll push right through a phalanx making it easy pickings for any other infantry.

[Watchman]

The mercs fighting for the Persians got around to mauling pike phalanxes the exact same way as everyone else - they went for the flanks. It was the exact same issue of sub-units becoming "disjointed" from each other in rough terrain or simply due to different rates of advance as the Romans exploited, leaving exposed gaps into which the hoplites (or legionaries, or whoever) could readily bite into.

[Maion Maroneios]

People who say Spartans were lame are plain dumb. Unless it was meant as a joke, of course.

And I meant more flexible as mobile units. In reality, the typical formation for a hoplite-based army would be a single row of 8 men deep pushing the enemy back.

Maion

[Mikhail Mengsk]

One of you mentioned that Hoplitais are was more flexible than phalangitais, but thats a bit crappy, phalangitais were way more flexible because hoplitais formation was only a long slow unflexible line. Phalangitais formation was divided in many smaller squares..

What?!?

[Flavius_Belisarius]

Now Flav B, understand please that this is no slight or insult to you. But...

How many times every month does some noob show up saying that this and that unit is too strong/too weak/unrealistic/whatever without knowing tha system and having much experience in it, and its balance?

When you have been here for a while, which I hope you will be, you will understand what I mean.

That said, welcome to the EB Forum, a wonderful world of historical and EB nerdness :-)

I understand you but quite sure that im not a noob, even on Eb which i didnt play for a long time yet. But i already had several Mp battles, and there Hoplitais were completly useless. Hoplitais couldnt face Phalangits, or other infantery units with sword, axe etc. And even against cavalry they werent really effectiv. Yes in a longer melee but if you play against a human who charges and retreats and so on, then hoplitais were useless. In my opinion they should be at least cheaper, especially the spartan and the armored elite hoplitai.

But i dont know how it is in campaign, i hardly every played it yet but i will try it. ;)

Edit.:

@Mikhail Mengsk

My english isnt the best but what i wanted to say was that in real Phalangits were way more flexible than normal hoplitai, and anybody asserted the opposite of this which is totaly false. :)

Here a picture. The reason why the hoplitai formation was so inflexible is that the whole formation was a long line, if this line breaks on one part, the whole battle was almost lost. The macedonian phalanx was quite flexible because they phalangits where subdivided in many squares. But after the dead of alexander the phalangits got more armor and they formed back to more like a line like the classical hoplitais which made them almost as unflexible.

[Maion Maroneios]

I think your problem is that you believe you should use your Hoplitai offensively, which is obviously wrong. I have played quite a few battles on-line, and many times it was my trustworthy Hoplitai that held out long enough for me to hammer the enemy line.

Maion

[A Very Super Market]

Besides, you're using examples form outside EB's timeframe.

[Flavius_Belisarius]

Actually i simply tried to act like in the real. And in real hoplitais used brutal shoving match warfare. So they should be offensive warriors but i will try to use them defensivly. A problem is that KH doesnt have any other really good units than hoplitai.

[Watchman]

That was centuries ago when they were mainly fighting each other. Them newfangled pike phalanxes, as it happens, were a *lot* better at the "frontal pushing match" business...

Adapt or perish.

[Knight of Heaven]

Well in MP is a little diferent, still if you use them well they do very good. Against a human player who charges and retreats with cavalry, specialy the hetarioi even in some cases the phalangites has trouble..so is not the hoplitai fault.
The hoplitai is far more mobile then the phalangites didnt understand what you mean with square blocks. anyway any unit in eb is more mobile then phalangites including the hoplitai. hum im not counting balistas and siege off course :P