Operation "Sea Lion"

[Beskar]

Biggest threat to Germany was Russia and they knew it. Stalin's 5 year plans brought Russia kicking and screaming to the 20th Century and with the help of the previous German government who supplied plans/arms/technology with the Russians, in return the Russian's allowing the German military to secretly train there, the Russian's really did have an advantage.

The fact was, Hitler had to attack Russia as soon as possible, because Time favoured the Russians, however, on that note, Hitler was never in an "optiminal" situation where he could invade Russia and by all accounts, probably did attack Russia at an optiminal moment when he took Stalin by surprise, due to the fact it was illogical for him to do so.

Apart from the whole conspiracy talk where Pearl Harbour was set-up as an excuse for the US to join the war, if the Japanese restarted the Russo-Japanese war instead, it could have really applied pressure to the Russians.


Heading more on-topic, Hilter didn't need to invade Britain, all he had to do was cripple Britain to take them out of the war effort. Eventually enough, Britain would have had to been forced to accept a ceasefire, if not a surrender.

The main catalyticism for America joining the world, however, was the Russians fighting Hitler back, because if they didn't join in, Western Europe as we know it would be a completely different place.

[Tellos Athenaios]

Except of course for the facts that Hitler declared war upon the USA on 11 December 1941 or 4 days after Pearl Harbor; and that the USSR received supplies from the USA even before (per the Lend Lease Act, October 1941) the USA was actually at war with Germany (11 December 1941).

EDIT: The then political elite in the USA was simply looking for any excuse to intervene and assert influence; even as the electorate was less enthusiastic about such intervention in Europe.

[Veho Nex]

I may be wrong but wasnt Hitler targetting american ships long before he declared war on them. Also, wasnt America trading with both axis and Allied powers during 39-41?

[Beskar]

Yeah, the Americans were hiding war supplies, etc on passager ships to Britain.

The declaring war on America was a pretty stupid move though, they should have fortified their position first.

[Yarema]

Beskar, I agree with you totally.

As for Sealion, I can hardly imagine any circumstances in which it could be possible. Even if the Germans would defeat the RAF (which they didn't), their Russian allies would stab them in the back, and that strike would be lethal for Germany.

[Brenus]

"their Russian allies would stab them in the back": This always come back and there is no ONE evidence, or even a smell of a flavour of a suspision of proof.
If USSR was ready to attack Nazi Germany, why not in 1940, May? They were in good position: Poland borders, not so far from Germany itself... It was just a ride as all German Pz Div were engaged against teh French and the British... So in September 1940, tell me what was the difference?

[Brenus]

"they should have fortified their position first."
They did later, and for what benefit.
In less than 24 hours, the US and the Brits crushed the Rommel defenses, the Navy blowed up all possibilty for the Panzer Div to intervene (so Rommel Plan was not viable as Runstedt predicted it) and the US and UK Air Forces made any movements impossible.

[Beskar]

Even if the Germans would defeat the RAF (which they didn't), their Russian allies would stab them in the back, and that strike would be lethal for Germany.

Russians had a time advantage. Germany was embroiled in war. Stalin was building up his own armies and strength, it was a matter of time before conflict arose, however, even Stalin was caught off-guard with Hitler's invasion and even dismissed it at first as misinformation.

Germany definitely got Russia into a pinch, however, Blitzkreig wasn't that effective in Russia, due to it being an almost endless mass of land, compared to the likes of France.

[Brenus]

“Russia would attack him in 1940”: Proof? Evidences? Plan? None. There is nowhere you can find a document allowing you to say that.
Yeah, I know, secret plan and the Barbarosa Trap, and all this non-sense, proved by nothing real:
“Soviet dictator, Stalin's, Red Army had been planning to invade Western Europe for about two years in 1941. The truth has been hidden from the world for nearly a half century.
In the 1990s, the truth began to surface as researchers in the Historical Archive and Military Memorial Center of the Red Army General Staff revealed a sensational document. The document is entitled: "Reflections of a Plan For The Strategic Deployment of the Armed Forces of The Soviet Union In The Event of War With Germany and Her Allies." The plan, obviously written in response to a directive from the dictator Stalin, was dated March 3 1941. The document was signed by
the top echelon of the Red Army General Staff, including: M.G. Vasilievsky, N. Vatutin, G. Zhukov and S. Timoshenko. It was all there, over fifteen pages of detailed maps and plans for the simultaneous invasion of Germany, Hungary and Rumania in 1941.”
That is it. This is THE proof….
Er, in 1938, the French Army was making plan to invade USSR by landing in Crimea… That is what the military called a simulation, a strategic war-game, Red against Blue.
For what we know between 1928 and 1941, the STAVKA had seven major operational war plans drafted, completed with fifteen reviews and revisions. So USSR planned 7 times to attack Europe. Well, of course, they were attacked as well, at least on paper…

Authors of this kind of books just imagine and try without any facts (real one, not the one they are making up: “There are reports of entire Air Force regiments which reported that they suffered negligible or no losses in the air or on the ground at the first day, and then simply abandoned their air bases and escaped by trucks and on foot. In 1941 Russia lost millions of soldiers. Only 32% of the reported losses were the dead and wounded”,),
They are just following in this the 1941 German Propaganda (Pre-emptive Strike).
It was a massive cover-up… Right. The Russian didn’t even succeeded to cover-up Kathyn, but THIS, they did it… Yeah…

What they provide is opinions not answers: “lot has been written on the tragedy of 1941. In the last few years a large amount of new publications appeared on the subject, but still they all explain the events of the beginning of the war differently. All of them keep asking the same question - why Red Army had suffered such a heavy defeat having had such a huge quantitative superiority in military equipment. Each publication provides an answer of its own. Some wrote that the USSR had planned to attack Germany and the Red Army concentration had an offensive nature and had not been able to react properly at being attacked unexpectedly, some wrote that the Army hadn't had enough new equipment, some stated that the data on Red Army equipment are incorrect” in Front lines edition.

Just for information: As late as June 1941, Colonel-General Halder described Soviet deployment as `rein defensiv', dismissing the idea of any major Red Army offensive as `nonsense'. He was even sceptical of Hitler's concern about a Soviet thrust towards the Romanian oil fields.

“i don't know where did you get this nonsense from, but i assure you that libraries and book stores are full of books which will all tell you that prior to 22 June 1941 Stalin grouped an army of about 3 million men and more than 4000 tanks literally ON border with Germany”
I don’t know where THEY find this, but it is simply not true.

“On the basis of the Russian Civil War (1918-20), the Red Army began to bill itself as ''an army of a new type'', inherently superior to all others. However, in late 1920, the Poles trounce it soundly. Later, Soviet intervention in the Spanish Civil War (1936-39) reveals widespread obsolescence in armament and equipment. The Nazi--Soviet Pact of August 1939 gives Germany and the USSR a free hand to act against Poland. However, slack performance by the Red Army in the unopposed occupation of eastern Poland and the bungled war with Finland in the winter of 1939-40 necessitate sweeping military reforms.” Extract of The Red Army, 1918-1941 -From Vanguard of World Revolution to US Ally

That is not exactly the description of a Army ready for attacking a other army which defeated in no time two of very powerful enemies, is it?

“Get ANY BOOK about eastern front 1941, and you will find it in ANY BOOK.” So when the Germans captured the entire heavy equipment of the British in Dunkirk (and the French) it was because UK and France secretly wanted to invade Germany and Germans attack was pre-emptive…. Or more simply because retreating army are leaving equipment behind them?

If you want to read books, read about the Blitzkrieg and how it worked. The aim was not to destroy the enemy but to prevent him to fight. Guderian said something like this: My tanks are not there to fight enemy tanks but to cut them from their supplies so they can’t fight. See, no need of smoky explanations. Just read what the Germans said about it.

About Red Army equipment I will suggest to read REAL history books and you will see that if the Red Army figures were impressive, the preparation and the ready for action material was far less impressive…

However, I want to thanks you for this.
I had to read all this non-sense from a so call ”Suvorov” and it makes me laugh. It was good after a hard day at work…