Xanthippos?

[Macilrille]

Ehhh... it is the Romans that are "barbarian" to the Greeks, to the Romans the Greeks were (or became in the period 200 BC- 148 BC) a people admired for their cultural achievements, but viewed with contempt for their lack ot other achievements and constant internal squabbling and infighting in a world that the Romans percieved themselves as conquering and bringing order in. Romans contemptuously called the Greeks "Graeculi" "Little Greeks", so use that instead of "barbarian" if you want to insult the Greeks and Hellene Lovers. bararian is a Greek word and though most cultures around the world understand the concept (us = good, the others = bad), the Greeks refined and named it.

[Maion Maroneios]

Ehhh... it is the Romans that are "barbarian" to the Greeks, to the Romans the Greeks were (or became in the period 200 BC- 148 BC) a people admired for their cultural achievements, but viewed with contempt for their lack ot other achievements and constant internal squabbling and infighting in a world that the Romans percieved themselves as conquering and bringing order in. Romans contemptuously called the Greeks "Graeculi" "Little Greeks", so use that instead of "barbarian" if you want to insult the Greeks and Hellene Lovers. bararian is a Greek word and though most cultures around the world understand the concept (us = good, the others = bad), the Greeks refined and named it.

Yes. The word "barbaros" is GREEK and it means NON-GREEK. The usage we have of it today is completely different.

Maion

[Macilrille]

Well, it seems it meant various things at various times. Wiki has an ok article on it.

The point is, just like it is a bit silly to quote cato but change Carthage to Rome, thus showing Roman dominace of our thoughts, it is equally silly to call Greeks barbarians...

[Knight of Heaven]

i belive the only people who arent barbaroi are the celts. THey were far more civilaized.

They evented soup for god sake, what we do without soup?

Romans and greeks they smell, very bad.
Apart the hair stlyles of the celts are way more cool

[Macilrille]

i belive the only people who arent barbaroi are the celts. THey were far more civilaized.

They evented soup for god sake, what we do without soup?

Romans and greeks they smell, very bad.
Apart the hair stlyles of the celts are way more cool

Yes soup is a staple of our diet, and it can be delicious as well ;-)

Sorry could not help that.

Whatever you think the Greco-(Roman) term is the original one, you cannot invent a new usage of the word. You can say that you find Celts more amenable and such, but to call them more civilised and the only non-barbarians goes against the usage of the word. It is like deciding to call round square instead.

[Maion Maroneios]

i belive the only people who arent barbaroi are the celts. THey were far more civilaized.

They evented soup for god sake, what we do without soup?

Romans and greeks they smell, very bad.
Apart the hair stlyles of the celts are way more cool

Dude, can't you read? The word BARBAROS means NON-GREEK. It's usage was not the same as we use today (smelly, unsicilized, etc).

And don't give me the Keltoi shit the rest of you Celt-lovers brag about. Fighting naked, sleeping with my fellow soldiers, and living in shacks and cottages isn't what I would call "civilized" my friend. Also, PLEASE don't give me the soap (not soup dude) shit all over again. If it was so effective, the Romaioi (who had a fetish for cleanliness) would have adopted the custom. You even know what a primitive form of soap looks like? Just a filthy-looking (and probably smelling as well) blob of fat and salts, that's ALL there is.

Also, I hate moustaches. What you say about hairstyles is purely subjective, doesn't have anything to do with someone being civilized or not. Not to mention that if you have ever done some reading in your life, you'd know that most houses had baths in them in Ancient Greece. They had scented oils and various perfumes (the scraping off oil was used by those who excersiced, NOT for personal hygiene) to make them smell much better than a soap-using Keltos. There were also many public baths in Ancient Greece, and plentiful of them. As for Rome, you all know how obsessed they were with personal hygiene.

Sheesh.

Maion

[antisocialmunky]

^-- Someone's acting like a Raving Barbaroi today...

Besides, the only civilization is the Middle Kingdom.

[Maion Maroneios]

Yeah right AS. We've seen you too...

Oh, and I'm not going to be easy. Not when I see such posts persisting.

Maion

[Macilrille]

Yeah right AS. We've seen you too...

Oh, and I'm not going to be easy. Not when I see such posts persisting.

Maion

Semi-flaming the poster is not going to ease his enlightenment Maion. In fact it makes him more resistant to what enlightenment you actually bring him.

Edited to add. If I started out by calling you a stupid, unenlightened idiot you would listen even less to my points where I consider Rome superior to Hellas would you not?

Not that you are, but if you want to enlighten people- no matter how stupid they are- it is always best to approach them with at least some politeness and respect.

[Macilrille]

Dude, can't you read? The word BARBAROS means NON-GREEK. It's usage was not the same as we use today (smelly, unsicilized, etc).

And don't give me the Keltoi shit the rest of you Celt-lovers brag about. Fighting naked, sleeping with my fellow soldiers, and living in shacks and cottages isn't what I would call "civilized" my friend. Also, PLEASE don't give me the soap (not soup dude) shit all over again. If it was so effective, the Romaioi (who had a fetish for cleanliness) would have adopted the custom. You even know what a primitive form of soap looks like? Just a filthy-looking (and probably smelling as well) blob of fat and salts, that's ALL there is.

Also, I hate moustaches. What you say about hairstyles is purely subjective, doesn't have anything to do with someone being civilized or not. Not to mention that if you have ever done some reading in your life, you'd know that most houses had baths in them in Ancient Greece. They had scented oils and various perfumes (the scraping off oil was used by those who excersiced, NOT for personal hygiene) to make them smell much better than a soap-using Keltos. There were also many public baths in Ancient Greece, and plentiful of them. As for Rome, you all know how obsessed they were with personal hygiene.

Sheesh.

Maion

Easy Maion, easy...

[Knight of Heaven]

Dude, can't you read? The word BARBAROS means NON-GREEK. It's usage was not the same as we use today (smelly, unsicilized, etc).

And don't give me the Keltoi shit the rest of you Celt-lovers brag about. Fighting naked, sleeping with my fellow soldiers, and living in shacks and cottages isn't what I would call "civilized" my friend. Also, PLEASE don't give me the soap (not soup dude) shit all over again. If it was so effective, the Romaioi (who had a fetish for cleanliness) would have adopted the custom. You even know what a primitive form of soap looks like? Just a filthy-looking (and probably smelling as well) blob of fat and salts, that's ALL there is.

Also, I hate moustaches. What you say about hairstyles is purely subjective, doesn't have anything to do with someone being civilized or not. Not to mention that if you have ever done some reading in your life, you'd know that most houses had baths in them in Ancient Greece. They had scented oils and various perfumes (the scraping off oil was used by those who excersiced, NOT for personal hygiene) to make them smell much better than a soap-using Keltos. There were also many public baths in Ancient Greece, and plentiful of them. As for Rome, you all know how obsessed they were with personal hygiene.

Sheesh.

Maion

If i can read..well i guess not! im not civilized after all. Dude

About the soap, you can find those in stores even today, are those blue and white bars, they also very good to wash clothes. They are efective for your information.


You konw the meaning of civilized people is very subjective and relative. How can you say one people is better or superior then another.
"history was writen by the victors"- Wiston Churchil

Also are you trying to persuade me that i should like more the greeks or romans then the keltoi??´
I mean why? your speach seems going in that direction. Of course hairs styles are subjéctive. but are you discussing tastes?? i like who i dam want. they dont need be "civilized"

How can you juge me, if i read or not? do you kown me? i read a alot, and i kown what you just said, but im talking about tastes and you are talking about historical facts, so dont use then to cover arguments wich cant be cover by facts.


You people should understand that my post was in jest, and i have the right to show my content, or discontent with any faction, i currently playing, or not playing.
Dont take everthing so dam serious.

And Sheesh

[Reality=Chaos]

If i can read..well i guess not! im not civilized after all. Dude

About the soap, you can find those in stores even today, are those blue and white bars, they also very good to wash clothes. They are efective for your information.


You konw the meaning of civilized people is very subjective and relative. How can you say one people is better or superior then another.

Also are you trying to persuade me that i should like more the greeks or romans then the keltoi??´
I mean why? your speach seems going in that direction. Of course hairs styles are subjéctive. but are you discussin tastes?? i like who i dam want. they dont need be "civilized"

How can you juge me, if i read or not? do you kown me? i read a alot, and i kown what you just said, but im talking about tastes and you are talking about historical facts, so dont use then to cover arguments wich cant be cover by facts.

And Sheesh

Welll historically there is probably some greek definition of what is civilized... But I agree with you... The celts were very much an advanced civilization... as for what is civilized... yeah that is pretty subjective indeed... A Chinese man out of the EB period would find any non-chinese a barabrian (they used a different word of course, but I think it was even more derogatory then Barabaroi was), whether they had an advanced civilization or not.... I think many people on here mean with and advanced civilization, is one that is also a dominant power.... And politically the celts were very divided, That is not to say that they had long and complicated trade routs, a quite advanced system of governing and a very strong culture...

[Macilrille]

In fact the Chinese term may have been less deragotory.

From Wiki, which has an ok article on "Barbarian" as I already mentioned.

The Chinese (Han Chinese) of the Chinese Empire sometimes (depends on the dynasty, geographic location, and timeline) regarded the Xiongnu, Tatars, Turks, Mongols, Jurchens, Manchus, Japanese, Koreans, Vietnamese and Europeans as "barbaric". The Chinese used different terms for "barbarians" from different directions of the compass. Those in the east were called Dongyi (東夷), those in the west were called Xirong (西戎), those in the south were called Nanman (南蠻), and those in the north were called Beidi (北狄). However, despite the conventional translation of such terms (especially 夷) as "barbarian", in fact it is possible to translate them simply as 'outsider' or 'stranger', with far less offensive cultural connotations.

[Maion Maroneios]

Right, OK dudes. I probably overreacted, but I get hot when seeing posts claiming that Celts cleaner and much more cvilized because they had soap. Besides, I never called anyone stupid or anything. I just said maybe some people need to bother reading posts before typing away, and probaby read some sources of their own instead of taking whatever the EB team throws them like pre-chewed food. Not that the EB team is wrong, but that doesn't mean you should listen to everyone before forming your own judgement based on your own experience and not solely upon something someone else says.

Obviously I'm not going to continue much longer, as this thread is already a good way to getting locked. What I want to show people is that Celts were not as "advanced" as as some people may like to believe. Yes, they had a good social structure, yes they had a fairly sophisticated (rhetorically, at least) language and yes, they were probably even some good scholars that were of Celtic origin. But if you come down to it, what remained of them? No written tradition, no development in sciences to speak of, no great epics at all, no marvelous monuments on par with the Parthenon for example, no language that managed to persist even until today.

And one last thing about the soaps: Modern soaps are quite different from the primitive forms civilizations like the Celts used. Yes, the basic composition is the same, but the effects and scents that go with modern soaps could never be accomplished hence they were sophisticated in Chemistry and had industries and laboratories to produce them. I don't argue that that kind of soap did its work, but I'm pretty sure the average hygiene of a Celt was (if not lower) at least on par with Hellenic/Roman societies. As I said, almost every Hellenic city had baths in almost every house, plus public baths. And washing with many other men is not filthy if the water is drained from the pool an renewed, which happened.

Maion

[Reality=Chaos]

In fact the Chinese term may have been less deragotory.

From Wiki, which has an ok article on "Barbarian" as I already mentioned.

The Chinese (Han Chinese) of the Chinese Empire sometimes (depends on the dynasty, geographic location, and timeline) regarded the Xiongnu, Tatars, Turks, Mongols, Jurchens, Manchus, Japanese, Koreans, Vietnamese and Europeans as "barbaric". The Chinese used different terms for "barbarians" from different directions of the compass. Those in the east were called Dongyi (東夷), those in the west were called Xirong (西戎), those in the south were called Nanman (南蠻), and those in the north were called Beidi (北狄). However, despite the conventional translation of such terms (especially 夷) as "barbarian", in fact it is possible to translate them simply as 'outsider' or 'stranger', with far less offensive cultural connotations.

I'm not too sure about that.... The ancient chinese had a severe superiority complex (like many old cultures btw) Chinese is what is good and civilized anything outside of that sphere is a stranger, outsider which makes him barbarian. Anyway I do not have any evidence for this so I'll go along with you.... I DO know that the japanese term Gaijin IS very derogatory... with a similar reasoning behind it.... The chinese and japanese generally seemed to look benignly on "barbarians" but also something as less then Chinese/Japanese, which led in several instances to rather violent and nasty episodes....

@ Maion. I can se your point.... The point that Knight of Heaven (and I in turn) were trying to make is that the term civilized is rather relative. And that definitions of what is civilized are wildly different across the world. therefore saying that one group is more civilized than another is rather strange... After all by whom's definition were they more civilized. i am not saying that the celts were more civilized than the greeks... Not at all... I am simply saying that both were sophisticated civilizations. What we know of Celtic law is intruiging indeed for example. Also women had a much less subservient role in society (mind you they were still subservient) I am not saying that this makes them better than the greeks, but on a social level they had huge sophistication. The greeks on the other hand were culturally much stronger in other areas, which they excelled at. Squaring the two off against one another is nothing more then a personal choice of cultural preference I think, not a case of one being more civilized than the other....

[Meneldil]

Dude, can't you read? The word BARBAROS means NON-GREEK. It's usage was not the same as we use today (smelly, unsicilized, etc).

And don't give me the Keltoi shit the rest of you Celt-lovers brag about. Fighting naked, sleeping with my fellow soldiers, and living in shacks and cottages isn't what I would call "civilized" my friend. Also, PLEASE don't give me the soap (not soup dude) shit all over again. If it was so effective, the Romaioi (who had a fetish for cleanliness) would have adopted the custom. You even know what a primitive form of soap looks like? Just a filthy-looking (and probably smelling as well) blob of fat and salts, that's ALL there is.

Also, I hate moustaches. What you say about hairstyles is purely subjective, doesn't have anything to do with someone being civilized or not. Not to mention that if you have ever done some reading in your life, you'd know that most houses had baths in them in Ancient Greece. They had scented oils and various perfumes (the scraping off oil was used by those who excersiced, NOT for personal hygiene) to make them smell much better than a soap-using Keltos. There were also many public baths in Ancient Greece, and plentiful of them. As for Rome, you all know how obsessed they were with personal hygiene.

Sheesh.

Maion

Oh my god, someone criticized ancient greeks on an internet forum. Time to get all angry and look ridiculous.

To put it bluntly, getting mad because someone made a poor joke about an ancient people with whom you likely don't share much other than living in the same general area is kind of ridiculous.

[Rabhadh]

Fighting naked, sleeping with my fellow soldiers, and living in shacks and cottages isn't what I would call "civilized" my friend.

You know, I just couldn't resist quoting this, we're talking about Greeks here, and we all know how much Greeks love "sleeping" with other men

[Maion Maroneios]

Well, Greek scholars wrote that and considered it weird since they had the most beautiful women. And if this seems weird to you, it's from the times of the Celtic invasion of Greece. Wow, "homosexuals" find sleeping with men strange? Wow, Aristophanes called the Eromenoi "euryproktoi" (wide-arses)? How could that be? Ohhh yes, because they were all homosexuals and thought of homosexualism as weird, of course.

Also, welcome to the fora

Maion

[Watchman]

Dude. Everyone knows Ancient Greeks were all about teh ghey and pederasty.

[ARCHIPPOS]

elaborate on the text below... it's quoted by gen Patton...
The difficulty in understanding the Russian is that we do not take cognizance of the fact that he is not a European, but an Asiatic, and therefore thinks deviously(wtf???). We can no more understand a Russian than a Chinese or a Japanese, and from what I have seen of them, I have no particular desire to understand them except to ascertain how much lead or iron it takes to kill them. In addition to his other amiable characteristics, the Russian has no regard for human life and they are all out sons-of-bitches, barbarians, and chronic drunks.

we all carry a fair amount of prejudice ,stereotypes , judgemental bullshit and generalities... even smart people like Patton...

[Knight of Heaven]

Well, Greek scholars wrote that and considered it weird since they had the most beautiful women. And if this seems weird to you, it's from the times of the Celtic invasion of Greece. Wow, "homosexuals" find sleeping with men strange? Wow, Aristophanes called the Eromenoi "euryproktoi" (wide-arses)? How could that be? Ohhh yes, because they were all homosexuals and thought of homosexualism as weird, of course.

Also, welcome to the fora

Maion

Look all good maion, i dont mean to be rude, just to defend myself, my point was the defenition of civilized is a very delicate matter, also i belive generaly speaking, people dont give the right credit to celtic factions and their contributes in humanty history, In social matters mainly they were very progressive, for that era.
All i heard is All greeks this, all romans this, etc off course there is reasons to do that. And they were amazing civilizations, with their own time.
But there is alot of aspects, that dont have a good foundation. For instance they say the gauls were devided, and fight each other... of course thats true, manny tribes, with manny rivals, and alot of wars among each other. But greeks dont? the romans dont? lol just and example.

About homosexuals, well this was a transversal reality in all human societies, what changed was the way one can look at that.
The greeks were famous to be more tolerants, and valorize, passion,love,afection,lust etc.
The relations among persons, should be man or women,speacialy in higher classes, were more open minded, for that time. Do not mistake this with marriage, marriage values werent the same as today of course.
And off course not every greek thinked and lived all the sameway.

[Maion Maroneios]

About homosexuals, well this was a transversal reality in all human societies, what changed was the way one can look at that.
The greeks were famous to be more tolerants, and valorize, passion,love,afection,lust etc.
The relations among persons, should be man or women,speacialy in higher classes, were more open minded, for that time. Do not mistake this with marriage, marriage values werent the same as today of course.
And off course not every greek thinked and lived all the sameway.

We agree on this completely.

Maion