Xanthippos?

[Reality=Chaos]

If i can read..well i guess not! im not civilized after all. Dude

About the soap, you can find those in stores even today, are those blue and white bars, they also very good to wash clothes. They are efective for your information.


You konw the meaning of civilized people is very subjective and relative. How can you say one people is better or superior then another.

Also are you trying to persuade me that i should like more the greeks or romans then the keltoi??´
I mean why? your speach seems going in that direction. Of course hairs styles are subjéctive. but are you discussin tastes?? i like who i dam want. they dont need be "civilized"

How can you juge me, if i read or not? do you kown me? i read a alot, and i kown what you just said, but im talking about tastes and you are talking about historical facts, so dont use then to cover arguments wich cant be cover by facts.

And Sheesh

Welll historically there is probably some greek definition of what is civilized... But I agree with you... The celts were very much an advanced civilization... as for what is civilized... yeah that is pretty subjective indeed... A Chinese man out of the EB period would find any non-chinese a barabrian (they used a different word of course, but I think it was even more derogatory then Barabaroi was), whether they had an advanced civilization or not.... I think many people on here mean with and advanced civilization, is one that is also a dominant power.... And politically the celts were very divided, That is not to say that they had long and complicated trade routs, a quite advanced system of governing and a very strong culture...

[Macilrille]

In fact the Chinese term may have been less deragotory.

From Wiki, which has an ok article on "Barbarian" as I already mentioned.

The Chinese (Han Chinese) of the Chinese Empire sometimes (depends on the dynasty, geographic location, and timeline) regarded the Xiongnu, Tatars, Turks, Mongols, Jurchens, Manchus, Japanese, Koreans, Vietnamese and Europeans as "barbaric". The Chinese used different terms for "barbarians" from different directions of the compass. Those in the east were called Dongyi (東夷), those in the west were called Xirong (西戎), those in the south were called Nanman (南蠻), and those in the north were called Beidi (北狄). However, despite the conventional translation of such terms (especially 夷) as "barbarian", in fact it is possible to translate them simply as 'outsider' or 'stranger', with far less offensive cultural connotations.

[Maion Maroneios]

Right, OK dudes. I probably overreacted, but I get hot when seeing posts claiming that Celts cleaner and much more cvilized because they had soap. Besides, I never called anyone stupid or anything. I just said maybe some people need to bother reading posts before typing away, and probaby read some sources of their own instead of taking whatever the EB team throws them like pre-chewed food. Not that the EB team is wrong, but that doesn't mean you should listen to everyone before forming your own judgement based on your own experience and not solely upon something someone else says.

Obviously I'm not going to continue much longer, as this thread is already a good way to getting locked. What I want to show people is that Celts were not as "advanced" as as some people may like to believe. Yes, they had a good social structure, yes they had a fairly sophisticated (rhetorically, at least) language and yes, they were probably even some good scholars that were of Celtic origin. But if you come down to it, what remained of them? No written tradition, no development in sciences to speak of, no great epics at all, no marvelous monuments on par with the Parthenon for example, no language that managed to persist even until today.

And one last thing about the soaps: Modern soaps are quite different from the primitive forms civilizations like the Celts used. Yes, the basic composition is the same, but the effects and scents that go with modern soaps could never be accomplished hence they were sophisticated in Chemistry and had industries and laboratories to produce them. I don't argue that that kind of soap did its work, but I'm pretty sure the average hygiene of a Celt was (if not lower) at least on par with Hellenic/Roman societies. As I said, almost every Hellenic city had baths in almost every house, plus public baths. And washing with many other men is not filthy if the water is drained from the pool an renewed, which happened.

Maion

[Watchman]

Detergent plus water beats just water hands down. Deal with it. I'd also note that the basic recipe for soap the Calts came up with was the peasant staple for a *very* long time (inasmuch as they now bathed, which wasn't all that much for a fairly lenghty period...) simply because it was quite effective and the necessary ingredients were readily available.
Also, AFAIK you can actually *eat* the stuff if need be, though it tastes like crud and probably doesn't digest terribly well.

[Conradus]

Regarding the Celtic lanuages: Irish, Gaelic, Welsh and Scottish are still (direct) descendants from whatever the ancient Celts used to speak not? Just like modernday Greek is a descendant from the ancient dialects. Albeit a pretty close one.

[Maion Maroneios]

I doubt that. Which language uses the same alphabet as the Celtic one? Didn't they have some weird symbols or something like that? Greek is the longest used alphabet, and modern Greek is a direct descendant from ancient, albeit adapted to modern needs.

Maion

[Watchman]

I fail to see how teh alphabet is the least bit relevant, doubly so as the Celts weren't yet much for writing junk (though apparently *literacy* was common enough among the upper classes of Gaul at least; presumably, they borrowed the Roman script). And the Graeco-Roman alphabet is a direct descendant of the Phoenician one anyway...

[Reality=Chaos]

In fact the Chinese term may have been less deragotory.

From Wiki, which has an ok article on "Barbarian" as I already mentioned.

The Chinese (Han Chinese) of the Chinese Empire sometimes (depends on the dynasty, geographic location, and timeline) regarded the Xiongnu, Tatars, Turks, Mongols, Jurchens, Manchus, Japanese, Koreans, Vietnamese and Europeans as "barbaric". The Chinese used different terms for "barbarians" from different directions of the compass. Those in the east were called Dongyi (東夷), those in the west were called Xirong (西戎), those in the south were called Nanman (南蠻), and those in the north were called Beidi (北狄). However, despite the conventional translation of such terms (especially 夷) as "barbarian", in fact it is possible to translate them simply as 'outsider' or 'stranger', with far less offensive cultural connotations.

I'm not too sure about that.... The ancient chinese had a severe superiority complex (like many old cultures btw) Chinese is what is good and civilized anything outside of that sphere is a stranger, outsider which makes him barbarian. Anyway I do not have any evidence for this so I'll go along with you.... I DO know that the japanese term Gaijin IS very derogatory... with a similar reasoning behind it.... The chinese and japanese generally seemed to look benignly on "barbarians" but also something as less then Chinese/Japanese, which led in several instances to rather violent and nasty episodes....

@ Maion. I can se your point.... The point that Knight of Heaven (and I in turn) were trying to make is that the term civilized is rather relative. And that definitions of what is civilized are wildly different across the world. therefore saying that one group is more civilized than another is rather strange... After all by whom's definition were they more civilized. i am not saying that the celts were more civilized than the greeks... Not at all... I am simply saying that both were sophisticated civilizations. What we know of Celtic law is intruiging indeed for example. Also women had a much less subservient role in society (mind you they were still subservient) I am not saying that this makes them better than the greeks, but on a social level they had huge sophistication. The greeks on the other hand were culturally much stronger in other areas, which they excelled at. Squaring the two off against one another is nothing more then a personal choice of cultural preference I think, not a case of one being more civilized than the other....

[Maion Maroneios]

Yeah, I should probably burn my keyboard or something. I get way too serious on these subjects. In RL I tend to point my finger towards anyone who speaks inaccurately about Ancient History (even to the point of becoming unberable sometimes), and debates make me passionate. Anyway, I guess I take stuff that people say waay too serious. Neglecting that some people actually joke sometimes.

Maion

[Reality=Chaos]

Yeah, I should probably burn my keyboard or something. I get way too serious on these subjects. In RL I tend to point my finger towards anyone who speaks inaccurately about Ancient History (even to the point of becoming unberable sometimes), and debates make me passionate. Anyway, I guess I take stuff that people say waay too serious. Neglecting that some people actually joke sometimes.

Maion

I personally Do not find your fanatical loyalty to Arche Makedonia irritating... Though I do not share your preference for makedonia, I do like the way it spices things up a bit

[Mikhail Mengsk]

It's a bit hard for the first time, but after that it's only some kind of "forum game": romaioktonoi vs rest-of-the-ANCIENT-world XD

[Maion Maroneios]

I'm not fanatical about Makedonia. I'm fanatical about historical accuracy. The whole Romaioi-hating thing is a joke, people. Plus, I'm also a KH fan you know. I actually have much more common with them, seeing my father hails from the shores of Mikra Asia and migrated to Paros in the Cyclades after the disaster of 1922. I started this thing because of the fact that I'm getting infuriated with people saying Celts were advanced because they used some primitive form of soap. I mean, come one give me a break!

Maion

[Watchman]

They were also well on their way to doing the Middle Ages over a millenia early when Caesar came and canceled any further "homegrown" developement, you know...

[Reality=Chaos]

I'm not fanatical about Makedonia. I'm fanatical about historical accuracy. The whole Romaioi-hating thing is a joke, people. Plus, I'm also a KH fan you know. I actually have much more common with them, seeing my father hails from the shores of Mikra Asia and migrated to Paros in the Cyclades after the disaster of 1922. I started this thing because of the fact that I'm getting infuriated with people saying Celts were advanced because they used some primitive form of soap. I mean, come one give me a break!

Maion

I can sympathyze with the soap thing

[Mikhail Mengsk]

I'm not fanatical about Makedonia. I'm fanatical about historical accuracy. The whole Romaioi-hating thing is a joke, people. Plus, I'm also a KH fan you know. I actually have much more common with them, seeing my father hails from the shores of Mikra Asia and migrated to Paros in the Cyclades after the disaster of 1922. I started this thing because of the fact that I'm getting infuriated with people saying Celts were advanced because they used some primitive form of soap. I mean, come one give me a break!

Maion

And my roots also obviously make me a Roman supporter ;-) no problems in that

YOU LOSE! MUAHAHAHAHHAHA ROMA VICTRIX! MUAHAHAHAHA