Request advice on Aedui...

[Irishmafia2020]

How do you defeat the Roman Scourge?

I decided to take a break from my never ending Greek campaigns (I love Baktria and Epiros) and try out something new. I'm not an EB novice - I've been playing this mod for a couple of years, but I've never really played Rome, Carthage, or the Celts. I decided to get an experience of Western style warfare, and celebrate my Celtic heritage by starting a campaign as the Aedui. I am using M/M settings (fine for this campaign) and I use the Force Diplomacy mod occasionally to end wars or give territory.

First of all, Gaul has a terrible economy. I started the campaign hemorrhaging money to the tune of -5000 per turn. I rallied my army and began attacking Averni and independent settlements while making peace with the other neighboring factions. I had no trouble beating the Averni, as my better tactics gave me the advantage in field battles. Eventually, i cornered them and besieged their capital. I did not want to destroy the faction (against house rules) so I used F/D to have them become a protectorate. I then took my army and attacked Avericum (an independent city in gaul) only to have my entire force destroyed in the assault - crushing defeat. At this point, Gaul was denuded of population, and my military was destroyed. The bright side was that I was able to slowly get out of debt, which was accomplished in the fifth game year. Eventually I rebuilt my army (Averni remains a protectorate) and I conquered Liguria, a region in Northern Italy. Rome declared war and tried to capture my Italian provinces. I moved my rebuilt army to a bridge, and planned to grind them down in a series of battles of attrition. They attacked my 3/4 stack on the bridge with 3 units. Admittedly they were three units of Triarii... Still a bridge battle against a measly 3 units mauled my army. I know that Triarii are elite hoplites (like Spartiates), but my bridge victory was Pyhrric at best.
At the end of the turn I saw 2 full stacks approaching my position and I fled, leaving behind a series of forts to slow the Roman advance. I gave my Italian provinces to the Averni, who had a couple of bored looking armies lying around, to defend, and I became a protectorate of Rome. My surviving army captured Marsallia, and I eventually gained access to Massallian Hoplites, who are the best unit that I can currently field. The Romans attacked the Averni, captured Mediolanium (which guards the Alpine passes) and declared war on me again. At the moment three 1/2 stacks of elite Roman troops are pouring into Gaul and I have no answer to the threat. In fact, I may place my survivors on a boat and head to Ireland, but seriously, whoever heard of a migration campaign that wasn't by choice?

So how do experienced Gaulish players stop the Romans?

Problems - Gaul has a weak economy, the units are unarmored, the best units are hard to produce because it is too expensive to build MICs, there is a low population base, Rome is your next door neighbor, Celtic troops really suck at urban assaults, the best cavalry (general's bodyguard) is only about as good as the standard "Eastern Medium Cavalry" that is available in Asia.

Positives - Massalian Hoplites are decent troops - once you capture the town and build the MIC. The naked guys are tough, but I haven't gotten them yet, Romans could be kept out of Gaul with strategic placement of forts, Reforms come organically. Actually, this faction is a lot weaker than I expected them to be - my experience playing them makes me realize how easy it is to play with the heavily armored Greeks and Romans...

What do I do?

[Mikhail Mengsk]

Well, generally speaking, Romans lack of good cavalry early on. Exploit this lack ;-)

[Watchman]

Also, even Triarii tend to fold fairly soon when they've first had to trudge through a stream of slingstones and then get enveloped on at least three flanks by hordes of longswordsmen. Or two, depending on the exact situation - you want to leave an unobstructed side your FamiCav can charge into, after all.

Or in any case with judicious use of such tactics I once wiped out a somewhat overconfident Roman mini-stack of a Triarii and a Samnitici Hastati with one FM, one unit of Gaeroas and two units of Lugoae. Thorough application of the same principles in bridge fights has also seen *much* larger stacks wiped out wholesale...

[Mikhail Mengsk]

I don't like to fight bridge battles, the AI is easy enough to be beaten, there's no need at all to use bridges to easily slaughter entire armies...

[kekailoa]

Three things-
-Gallic troops do not suck at urban assaults. You just have to use them right. Don't even bother with the stone-walled cities (except Massalia, maybe, for trade) and focus on the wooden walled cities. Use your slingers to eliminate most of their troops before you even break down the walls, and try and throw all your javelins before entering. I've had a great amount of success with this tactic, sometimes killing over half of the enemy before I even enter the wall.

-What are you using? If you're using spears, of course they do. Spear units for the Gauls are useless except for early game and garrisoning. But the Northern gallic swordsmen have higher stats, same morale and more men than Massalians, plus, they're cheaper. Plus, Gallic light cav is extremely useful. AP lances (I think) and really good at skirmishing, not to mention the Gallic noble cav (which come far later) are also some of the best cavalry in the west. Try and get your hands on the Milhant (belgaic swordsmen) and the belgaic spearmen. Use armies of northern gallic swordsmen (line troops) and axemen (for flanking) mixing in Celtic slingers and light cav for support.

-You're an extremely experienced EB player, so you probably have it on high difficulty levels and realize how to run an economy and the like. And you're exactly right, the economy sucks. But that's what you have to focus on in the beginning. Kill the Arverni, all of them, as fast as you can. No protectorates. Leave the over-powerful independent cities alone and immediately start focusing on your economy and building a decent, Roman-fighting army. Take as many of the weaker cities as you can, especially coastal ones. Use your new army to do this, building up exp. and by then, the Romans will probably gone apesh*t on you. Leave Liguria alone, focus on Gaul. Build up Mediolanium with stone walls and troops to the expense of the rest of your minor cities. Build only what is important, and the military is very important.

But you probably already have figured this out, because you're probably a lot better at this game than me. Lol.

PS. Another tip. I got this from MAA. He said to not expand eastwards past the Rhine until you're extremely secure, and to dissuade the Germans from attacking build forts on all the river crossing to forewarn of and stymie the German advance.

[Allhopeforhumanity]

This is exactly the situation I've found myself in. I took on the Averni and slaughtered them in about 15 years of constant war. But this left my economy in shambles, I think I had something on the magnitude of -40k gold at this point. At this point the Romans attacked me at Mendolanum (sp?) and conquered it with their full stack of Triarii/Pedites Extraordinarii. In the mean time I managed to grind them to a standstill in the alps and capture massalia for some well needed naval trade. Once I got back into the black and built a few more northern swordsman I pushed into Italy and claimed the 3 most northern cities south of the alps. Apparently this really pisses the Romans off and they send either a full stack of Triarii/Pedites Extraordinarii with a few units of their Slingers sprinkled in, or entire stacks of merc troops every turn. Now I'm no novice when it comes to battlefield tactics and I've managed to hold onto the cities thus far, but I have no way to counter attack and at this rate I wont have enough money to hold out on to the attrition for much longer.

I guess what im wondering is, would it be best to burn the cities to the ground and fortify the alps against further incursions while i build up my economy, or put all my eggs in one basket and sail my remaining reinforcements to the south and try to push them from Rhegion and hope that my northern bases can hold in the mean time?

[Andy1984]

Since I never even bothered trying a Aedui campaign, I can only say how my Romans got massacred (more then once) by Gauls.
1. Gaesaetae: these make opponents rout, given you aren't playing VH battle difficulty
2. Northern Gallic Swordsmen: these are the dread of any unit I field as a Roman. Their javelins have a bigger range then my pilae. Their missile attack is mostly between 7-8, while my pilae are only 5-6. In close combat, they chop through my hastati and principes. Triarii are mostly capable to hold on for a while.
3. Brihentin bodyguard cavalry: try to find one that gives a remarkable +3 or +4 morale to units on the battlefield. This makes an AI fight to death, and may be usefull for you to.
4. Gallic slingers are superior over any Roman missile units, but are quite useless against legionnary infantry if you're not targetting them in their backs.

Other than that, don't bother with the Southern Gallic Swordsmen, or all these spearmen (except the Batacorii). They're not worth it. Your units are hardly ever armoured (and you probably lack the funds for anything armoured), so I guess you'll have to rely on your northern Gallic units. Besides: Romans are unlikely to field decent cavalry, so you'll be fine fielding swordsmen rather than spearmen.

good luck,

A happy Roman who butchered over 4000 Aedui with around 250 losses. (finally some well deserved revenge after all these human and even territorial losses)

[Irishmafia2020]

Thank you for your advice, everyone...

I have found the celtic slingers and the northern Gallic swordsmen to be very effective, inexpensive troops. I think that I will fall back into Northern Gaul and Belgium, and hopefully the Romans will take some territory for peace... I will also load a boat and send it to Ireland, just in case...

[Andy1984]

Oh, and I forgot about the Alpine axemen. In the hands of a player they may be worth their money as well. However, I have no idea whether the Aedui can actually train them or whether they are mercenaries only.

Giving you're having a wonderful time with the Aedui, I definitly should try them in my next campaign.

Good luck,

Andy

[Geticus]

Eurobarbs are my specialty in this game especially Gallic factions, the Gallic economy is not too bad if you know its strong points. North Sea trade is the engine of their economy, and the best cities by far are Bratosporios (Belgae) and Camulosadae, the British capital, with Bagacos (Belgae) also being fairly strong. Control those three provinces and you will dominate north Europe. Bratosporios especially is fairly easy to take and should be tops on your list. Darioritum also is not bad, and you need it to build a navy. Massilia and Toulouse are also pretty powerful, and Aventicos (the Helvetian city) has a good mine as well as the Helvetian phalanx, one of the better infantry troops. I generally put temples of Essus and Cernunnos in coastal cities for increasing trade, Cernunnos is great for general traits while Essus has higher law bonuses.

As for troop selection I agree with kekailoa, when I play Gauls the Northern Gallic Swordsmen/Bataroas are my standby until I reach time of soldiers. My basic goal early game is to crush the opposing Gallic faction and get fields of games and weaponsmiths in the twin capitals of Bibracte and Gergovia, if you can do that then your swordsmen lines should be able to crush Rome with decent tactical management. Aside from that get some Leuke epos if you can or just hire curepos light cav mercs, they are your best friend for running down Roman generals and routers. But yeah Massilians only have 160 men vs 200 Northerns for the same cost, and the Northerns come from the capitals where the weaponsmithies are... Plus Northerns have greater stamina so I never use Massilians, just solid lines of Northern and Southern Gallic Swordsmen with a few slingers and light cav always gets the job done.

Make sure that your generals have druidic surgeons, and command or morale bonuses to counter the low morale which is the Bataroas only weakness.

So at the point of the game where you are at, I'd just say disband all non garrison spearmen, relevy Bataroas or hire Northern Gallic Merc Swordsmen and upgrade their weapons, hire a couple few cavalry, maybe a naked spear, route the sluggish Romans, and develop North sea trade for the win.

Oh and upgrade the weapons of all Gallic light cavalry, they are absolutely devastating once you get good with them, as long as I have two or three of them the Romans almost never stand a chance. Last game on VH campaign and Hard battle difficulty we burned the Roman capital in 258 and eradicated the Romans the next year.

[Tyrfingr]

I got the same problem, but with the Arverni. Destroyed the Aeudi in 270BC, and managed to capture some rogue gallic settlements until 265BC when the romans starts attacking Mendolanum. Now, my army besieging Avaricum has forced marched through the Alps, just to reinforce the city. It's going to be a couple of hellish years before me...

[Exosus]

One thing that really helped me with the aedui is to spread my battle-line very very thing at the start. The Romans have a tendency to create small, dense blocks. These will break through your center, but in the time it takes them to do so you can bring your extended wings around and attack their general. Once the general is dead, the remainder can be routed. Avoid fighting in situations like the bridge - all that does is bring it down to a combat of units - a combat you will probably lose strategically if not tactically.

The other key to it is to use your superior numbers. The Romans cannot out-produce you once you have taken the Averni. Destroy their units in the field and take cities when they are vulnerable; wear them down over time. If possible, avoid entering their expansion areas and pissing them off. Unless you specifically create one you do not share a border with the Romans upon defeating the Averni unless I am remembering wrong. Rarely will the AI cross rebel territory to attack you, meaning you can move East and take eleutheroi territories until you can be certain you have the capacity to out-produce your foes.

Oh, one other thing - don't feel compelled to build your top-quality units. They are not cost-effective when you are having the money troubles you speak of. The levy spearmen are sufficient and can be produced in massive amounts. Just make sure to build farm upgrades and health upgrades to replace the population.

[kekailoa]

Unless you specifically create one you do not share a border with the Romans upon defeating the Averni unless I am remembering wrong. Rarely will the AI cross rebel territory to attack you, meaning you can move East and take eleutheroi territories until you can be certain you have the capacity to out-produce your foes.

Oh, one other thing - don't feel compelled to build your top-quality units. They are not cost-effective when you are having the money troubles you speak of. The levy spearmen are sufficient and can be produced in massive amounts. Just make sure to build farm upgrades and health upgrades to replace the population.

I disagree. The Romans have multiple times marched across Bononia to attack me in Mediolanum, even if they don't, by the time you defeat the Arverni, the Romans will most likely have taken all three northern cities.

Plus, the levy spearmen are crap against Romans. Decent against other Gauls and hold the line well enough, but when fighting Romans, you need swords, not spears. But I agree build your population as well.

[Irishmafia2020]

good advice... I savor the discussion. taking the Belgian cities would be a good plan, although my army is pinned down dealing with the roman threat... Thank you, and if you remember more, let me know!

Currently, I captured southern Ireland so I can produce decent Goidilic troops, and i at least have a fall back strategy if the Romans capture more towns in Southern Gaul. I just don't want to restart the campaign, since it is interesting and has its own flavor now....

In my experience (so far) the levy spearmen are fine for dealing with barbarians, but they get annihilated by the armored Romans. Massalian Hoplites and Celto-hellenic infantry are specifically my heavily armored troops, whereas the Northern Gallic swordsmen are the standby infantry. The swordsmen seem to die a lot though, even if they deal out some damage in the process. Also, those Caturgis Spearmen from the Alps are decent spearmen with good morale, albeit unarmored. One problem that I have is a lack of cavalry, obviously this is my own fault for not making MIC construction a priority. I also have not been using my temples as proper complements to my military...

[Grade_A_Beef]

If you play the Celts like you do the hoplites, you'll lose an unnessesary amount of men. The Celts aren't really good defensively (guard mode is not suited for Celts). What they do have however are line troops that have high lethality coupled with javelins and a huge charge bonus.

Basic advice against the Romans or anyone else....charge. With the whole line, just charge. Keep a few Teceitos and other AP axemen in the flanks and as reserves once you've engaged, but even on VH/M the Roman Polybian troops rout on contact. (I normally wouldn't let them even get to Polybian, but I played as Casse)

Be sure to sprinkle a few Uirudosios and Gaesatae (if you can afford the Gaesatae that is) evenly on your line, so as to encourage the enemy to rout even faster.

In other words...bridge battles are right out. You'll still get heroic victories with those, but you'll lose less on a field battle

[Andronikos]

Many Celtic units have javelins and when you turn on autofire, you can repel enemy charge, huge mass of javelines thrown into face could make charging enemy rout.
And the southern units aren't at all bad. My anti-Roman armies consisted of southern swordmen, spearmen (gaeroas, the havy skirmisher, good for the tactic described above), gaesatae, slingers and cavalry and did wonders, with few chevrons they can face Romans.
Also your bodyguards are superior when compared with equites, just charge enemy general and order yours to use swords, they will kill Roman general pretty fast.
The idea not to mess with Sweboz is wise.
And there is one enemy, whose units are even more powerful and harder to kill than Romans, and waits for you in the southwest - you really don't want to fight Cartaginian phalanxes and armoured infantry with your light units.

[Geticus]

good advice... I savor the discussion. taking the Belgian cities would be a good plan, although my army is pinned down dealing with the roman threat... Thank you, and if you remember more, let me know!

Currently, I captured southern Ireland so I can produce decent Goidilic troops, and i at least have a fall back strategy if the Romans capture more towns in Southern Gaul. I just don't want to restart the campaign, since it is interesting and has its own flavor now....

In my experience (so far) the levy spearmen are fine for dealing with barbarians, but they get annihilated by the armored Romans. Massalian Hoplites and Celto-hellenic infantry are specifically my heavily armored troops, whereas the Northern Gallic swordsmen are the standby infantry. The swordsmen seem to die a lot though, even if they deal out some damage in the process. Also, those Caturgis Spearmen from the Alps are decent spearmen with good morale, albeit unarmored. One problem that I have is a lack of cavalry, obviously this is my own fault for not making MIC construction a priority. I also have not been using my temples as proper complements to my military...

Not too much, whenever I played Gauls I got sick of the Romans sending wave after wave of heavy infantry at Mediolanum and South Gaul I got to where I just conquer the ring of cities around Bibracte and then head southeast in full force, burn Rome and industrialize with the profits of pillage and conquest. The hard thing in my experience is to have a strong army to oppose to Rome and enough gold for a second army of conquest in the north. Since you took south Ireland, you already have two armies, if you take North Ireland you will find it is very strong economically, Ynys Mon just across the bay is also great.
But don't overlook Bratosporios, that should be a huge priority as it is a trade hub for the entire North Sea area, 4 or 5 Northern Swordsmen and 4 slingers with a decent general used carefully should do the trick, only divert them from the southern theater for a year and your trade dividends will prove great with Ireland already conquered. Also the Belgae Swordsmen that can be recruited in the Belgae cities are very strong, high lethality, big shields, with excellent morale and stamina and a very tight formation, capable of going toe to toe with most anything.

[Cute Wolf]

Don't forget uirodusios.... a line full of them should made hastati rout on contact... but beware with those missiles... Celts and Germans are highly missile allergic...

[Exosus]

I was just using the levy spearmen as an example - obviously you can't simply pick one unit and build an army with it. My point was that a cost-benefit analysis is an important part of making an army; even more so when you are having trouble with your monetary situation.

Regarding Rome having taken those 3 natural expansions by the time you are done with the Averni, that was not the case when I did it. Obviously if taking the Averni out means creating a border with Rome that does not apply, but that will not always be the case. Regarding their leaping over said territories to take Mediolanium et al, that is definitely a possibility. I have seen it happen, but it isn't all that common (imx) so leaving those cities will at least give you some chance of maintaining a peace long enough to improve infrastructure and pick up a few Eleutheroi territories before you have to go into total war mode.

Every campaign is going to be different, so none of our strategic hints will work 100% of the time: The key is to take it all into your decision making paradigm so that when a situation arises you will have a more complete view of your options.