the sabaean and Thureophoroi mod.

[Moros]

Why would you give sabaean turbands, and remove javelins from nomad arabians?
Most sabaeans are depicted either bare headed. Javelins are one of the oldest weapons around, and far spread too. It's a weapon known throughout the whole EB map, wierd that they wouldn't know about it in Arabia, no? Petroglyphs have shown cavalrymen with what likely are javelins.

One example (there are more):


Actually if there were javelins to be removed, my bet would be on the King's elite.

[Ibrahim]

Why would you give sabaean turbands, and remove javelins from nomad arabians?
Most sabaeans are depicted either bare headed.

true, but I gave them turbans because there are indeed other depictions that show what appears to be an arabian style turban-its called a 3amaamah in arabic. besides, I have difficulty depicting bareheadedness with the models I have. however, I do hope to have bareheaded versions in the future. In fact, I might have to model the units from scratch, but until then, that's all there is

Javelins are one of the oldest weapons around, and far spread too. It's a weapon known throughout the whole EB map, wierd that they wouldn't know about it in Arabia, no? Petroglyphs have shown cavalrymen with what likely are javelins..

of course they knew about it-its just that they weren't big on javelins. the only records I know of about javelins in Arabia are as officer status weapons, or in use by yemenis in the post himyar era of south arabian history (post 525 AD). otherwise, its described as a mostly "foreign" weapon, with ethiopeians being the most documented users. if javelins were used, they were a minority in an otherwise spear dominated people.

One example (there are more):

as for that spear, its more likely just that-a spear. it could easily have been a lance or spear used overhand as it is a javelin, so this petroglyphs can't really be regarded as evidence of one or the other. this, with what was written regarding arabians by strabo (the roman expidition to saba), the pre-islamic poems, etc, convince me that javelins weren't particularly common. (don't you wish they drew better than that?)

Actually if there were javelins to be removed, my bet would be on the King's elite.

true, but the guards share a model with another unit, so I'm stuck with this model (and weaponry) till furthur notice.

[Moros]

as for that spear, its more likely just that-a spear. it could easily have been a lance or spear used overhand as it is a javelin, so this petroglyphs can't really be regarded as evidence of one or the other. this, with what was written regarding arabians by strabo (the roman expidition to saba), the pre-islamic poems, etc, convince me that javelins weren't particularly common. (don't you wish they drew better than that?)

The thing is that when it comes to petroglyphs, we usually see lances and spears hold undergand when it come to cavalry. And that spears or javelins held over hand seem rarer, but are also depicted in combination of camels. As camels fighting with overhand spears look wierd to me, I'd suggest those would be javelins.

Also what records are you basing of that the javelin wasn't a common weapon in Arabia? I'm quite curious really.

[gamegeek2]

I know inscriptions of spears are usually difficult to interpret, but that looks like an overhand spear to me.

Javelins are cheap, highly effective killing weapons for impoverished people, and they can puncture poorly made armour very, very easily.

Beautiful work Ibrahim, can only hope you keep it up on AtB.

[Moros]

I know inscriptions of spears are usually difficult to interpret, but that looks like an overhand spear to me.

Javelins are cheap, highly effective killing weapons for impoverished people, and they can puncture poorly made armour very, very easily.

Beautiful work Ibrahim, can only hope you keep it up on AtB.

Eiter way I've yet to encounter some real reasons to see why arabians wouldn't have used javelins?
On the other hand of course it's Ibrahim's mod and should mod as he wants.

[Watchman]

Javelins are cheap, highly effective killing weapons for impoverished people, and they can puncture poorly made most armour very, very easily.

Fixed.

[Moros]

Also what about this one? Note how the arm is just the way it'd be before throwing a javelin. Also note the spear/javelin is tilted upwards. Not downwards like with overhand spears.


Note these guys, Of which one spear is drawn way out of proportion and looks like a lance. Which can not be the case considering it's wielded above hand. However look the way they hold it, seems rather like javelins to me. All spears look not to point downward like they should with overhand spears, instead they look as if they are intended to throw.

[A Very Super Market]

Obviously, they're helicopters. With moving rotor blades.

[Ibrahim]

The thing is that when it comes to petroglyphs, we usually see lances and spears hold undergand when it come to cavalry. And that spears or javelins held over hand seem rarer, but are also depicted in combination of camels. As camels fighting with overhand spears look wierd to me, I'd suggest those would be javelins.

Also what records are you basing of that the javelin wasn't a common weapon in Arabia? I'm quite curious really.

yeah, it is a pain sometimes.

as for my sources, I have mostly a few scattered accounts; one is about uhud: the story it tells indicates javelins weren't a common arabian weapon. Hind bint Utbah hired an Abyssinian slave to do the killing, as he was the only one she knew who could use a javelin with any skill. there is also an account of Umar conversing with Ibn al'as regarding weaponry, again showing that javelins, while known and occasionally used, were not considered reliable for arabs (they really weren't). then, there are all those poems you have to contend with: http://adab.com/modules.php?name=Sh3...tid=17&start=0 .

few if any refer to javelins, and most refer to swords, spears and bows, in that order. some of those poets were yemenis as well, who would have grown up in south arabian culture centers. I'm not saying javelins were not used at all, just that they weren't as common. oh, and I do use Osprey, thoughI do not use the reconstruction drawings, but the photographs instead.

however, now that I have seen these drawings, I'm convinced that javelins may have been more coomon than previously thought. now that only leaves one problem: how to reconcile those petroglyphs with the written account? what is the date on thise inscriptions? I suspect that it may be due to a temporal gap; most of the records are 3rd-7th centuries.

PS: does any one know what is the sabaean word for spear? just wondering.

[Moros]

I don't have it in my outdated sabaic lexicon. I believe I had it in a later version which got lost after my laptop crashed. When I update it again I'll drop it by.

Any other sabaic words you might need?

Also further on javelins. It's not because of lack of historical data something didn't exist or wasn't used for miliatry purpose. Quite a few scholars tought sabaean didn't use the bow much, as the inscriptions studied by Beeston seem to suggest. However a victory stele full of archers carrying the chopped of hands of the defeated (some silly custom from there) shows that it wasn't the case.

Either way, while I'd avoid javelins from Sabaean elite units, more bedouin like units would surely be using javelins.

[Moros]

The Sabaic 'RṂH' probably means Lance/spear. But it's not sure.

[Ibrahim]

The Sabaic 'RṂH' probably means Lance/spear. But it's not sure.

rmh?

its almost definitely a lance or thrusting spear (80% so)-the same word is in arabic, and has the exact same meaning.

don't they have a word similar to hirbah or 'lt? that's the word for javelin in arabic*(by the the century it specifically referred to a pilum like weapon). acually, do they have nay for javelin?

*in later ages it cam to refer to bayonets, harpoons, and lances of the european type, but I'm sticking with the consice meaning as per "lisaanu ul-3arab"

oh, and I'll consider giving them javelins, just not now. (and yeah, I have those two new units ready for nabatu (AtB)-just need to reskin the sabaean version)