Amusing ourselves to death

[Ariovistus Maximus]

Hey guys!

I wanted to bring up for discussion a trend in society that I see often. This disturbs me greatly. I just can't hold it in any longer.

I don't know about the condition of Europe, but in the States this has nearly become the norm, so it would seem.

But first I will sum it up with a few quotes:

"The best argument against democracy is a 5-minute talk with the average voter."

"Any society that would sacrifice a little liberty to gain a little security will deserve neither and lose both."

"Under a democratic government, the citizens exercise the powers of sovereignty; and those powers will be first abused, and then afterwards lost, if they are committed to an unwieldy multitude."

This last one hit it on the head for me. It's from Edward Gibbon.

It seems to be saying that this sovereign power of the citizenry will turn law into a mere reflection of the mood of the day; that policy is based on the fad of the moment.

And truly it seems that this is what politics has become. It is the reflection of the whims of the moment. It seems to me that most of today's politics is centered on buzzwords.

Today, everybody's worried about "greenhouse gas emissions." What about tomorrow, when everyone's bored of "global warming?" What happens when they get tired of seeing that in the news?

Suddenly global warming won't be a problem. What fad will we move on to next?

To cite a few examples:

I am disturbed when I see the President's popularity polls. Have you noticed that his policies are losing popularity, but his personal approval rating is as high as ever? People don't like his politics, but they still love him anyway?

I am disturbed when a politician's smile and demeanor is of greater moment than his politics.

It is an insulting commentary on our nation that anyone would vote based on color, one way or the other.

People who refuse to vote for a black man are disgusting bigots, and people who vote for a black man because he's black (or a woman because she's a woman etc) are foolish and shallow.

Experience? Bah! Who needs experience as long as you look good and talk pretty? When did past performance indicate anything about future performance?

Now that I've said som things that may be considered anti-Obama, I will say some other things.

I also think that it's an insulting commentary on the general public on how they have behaved in politics these days.

When Bush won by a narrow margin, people cried "foul!" and drove around with bumper stickers reading, "Not MY President!"

But now that Obama won, I see bitter Republicans running around making waves about how Obama isn't a citizen blah blah blah. Come on, people! GROW UP! This isn't the 5th grade, arguing about who gets which sandbox toys!

The man is elected. LIVE WITH IT. You don't have to like it, but I think that he at LEAST deserves respect as the President of the United States of America. If WE don't respect him, why should any other nation respect him? And if nobody respects him, they certainly won't respect the United States itself! So we'll act like children because we feel slighted that someone disagrees with us?

Rush Limbaugh. The guy WANTS our President (that's right, OUR President) to FAIL?!?!? Ummm, if he fails, I think it logically follows that the nation fails by and large...

The man actually compared it to a FOOTBALL GAME!!! Are we so stupid, so shallow, so careless, so irresponsible that we think of our nation as a big football game???

HAS ENTERTAINMENT SO BECOME OUR GOD THAT WE UNCONSCOUSLY THINK OF POLITICS IN TERMS OF GAMES AND AMUSEMENT???

OUR SOURCE OF KNOWLEDGE IS NOW THE LATEST HOLLYWOOD MOVIE. "Well, it happened on "x" show, so it must be right, right?"

OUR WISE MEN AND PHILOSOPHERS ARE OUR ACTORS AND MUSICIANS.

Now, I'm not saying that we should be bobbleheads and always agree with everything our great leader says (I don't agree with the majority of it myself), but honestly.

Lawsuits. It's the American way.

We have taken "personal liberty" so far. If someone looks at you wrong, it's a "hate crime."

It seems that these days, freedom means that if someone does something you don't like, you throw a fit about it.

Ok, I can understand the American Revolution of 1776. That has some legitimate cause.

But now we riot, strike, sue, you-name-it over anything that dares displease us. We really are a bunch of little kids in big bodies.

I am upset that, while killing babies is fine with us, that we stand aghast when our neigbor throws away his pop cans instead of recycling them. "You're destroying our environment!!!"

Well, if society keeps going on this track, I don't think we need to worry about the earth melting in another million years.

Have you noticed how many concience salves we have today? Who cares if you drink yourself to death, ruin your marriage, ignore your kids, and sit at home collecting wellfare when you could just as easily work? At least you use paper, not plastic. Oooooh, or maybe YOU use cloth! Wow.

Also, the recent Bernie Madoff case sheds some light on our judicial system.

You could have guaranteed that he would get the full 170 year sentence before it was pronounced on him. Why? Because it was an emotional case. What he did makes people angry.

Another concience salve, by the way. At least I'm not like him. People feel so righteous when they scoff at murderers and embezzlers.

Madoff was booed when he entered the courtroom, and the audience cheered when he recieved his sentence.

The whole case was like a spectator sport! You knew that Madoff would get the full sentence because people felt sorry for his victims and upset by the story.

Yes, I think that Madoff's actions were aweful. But you can see quite plainly that the court's ruling had more to do with the feeling of the audience than the letter of the law.

You didn't need to know the technicalities of the law to know that Madoff would get 170 years. Needless to say, it would have been a life term even if he'd only gotten the 12 years. He's an old guy. But it made people happy that he got 170 years; it made them feel just, and made them feel like they were upholding the rights of the underdog.

I can go murder a fat white guy, and I would get in trouble, sure.

But a LOT of a LOT of a LOT of murderers have gotten off with WAY less than Madoff is getting.

"Well, what's one life compared to millions of dollars?"

Is this really our attitude today?

[Ariovistus Maximus]

Uhm, yeah. Welcome to the golden age of the 21st century. Sucks don't it?

There's no cure but to keep trying our best until it all crashes and burns, at which point people might get the point.

Personally I think the biggest sign recently is the fact that CNN won't talk about anything other than Michael freaking Jackson. Nothing else. Not Iran, not Iraq, not Afghanistan, not Honduras, not Congress, not crap. Just Michael Jackson.

Amazing, isn't it? Or how we sent ACTORS as delegates to Iran? Oh, how they must be laughing.

Yeah, Michael Jackson or important world events?

Ummmm... MICHAEL JACKSON!!!

Priorities? What are priorities? BAH! We will just go with whatever will get a bigger reaction.

I hardly mean to mock the grave, but really I think we should go on with life...

EDIT: Oh, I forgot to mention that the title of this thread is a book you should read.

[Andres]

So, this thread is to complain about the horrible modern Western societies we live in?

Let's see. I am not hungry. Nor thirsty. I have a fridge and a cellar with plenty of food, for more than 3 weeks. I have a roof above my head. I need to work 40 hours a week; overtime is well paid. I have savings, I have central heating that keeps me warm during Winter; I don't know which DVD to watch first, which book to read first or which game to play first. My cellar is filled with good wine and excellent beer. I have a car. I can go on holiday two or three times a year.

Ehm, what were we complaining about again?

[LittleGrizzly]

Ehm, what were we complaining about again?

People getting apathetic to politics because thier distracted by thier nice shiny possessions and the fact that a winning smile combined with a load of charisma will get you further than good policy will...

[Andres]

Ehm, what were we complaining about again?

People getting apathetic to politics because thier distracted by thier nice shiny possessions and the fact that a winning smile combined with a load of charisma will get you further than good policy will...

Well, what are you waiting for?

Start practicing on your winning smile and charisma

[Ariovistus Maximus]

So, this thread is to complain about the horrible modern Western societies we live in?

Let's see. I am not hungry. Nor thirsty. I have a fridge and a cellar with plenty of food, for more than 3 weeks. I have a roof above my head. I need to work 40 hours a week; overtime is well paid. I have savings, I have central heating that keeps me warm during Winter; I don't know which DVD to watch first, which book to read first or which game to play first. My cellar is filled with good wine and excellent beer. I have a car. I can go on holiday two or three times a year.

Ehm, what were we complaining about again?

An interesting point; but this I think is part of the problem.

No offence to you, Andres, but that is a rather complacent viewpoint.

"As long as I have my boat, my truck, and my cabin next to the lake, I don't care what happens with politics."

But that attitude is a perfect way to lose you boat, your truck, and your cabin next to the lake. Or to lose it for your children.

Complacency is part of the problem here.

[Cute Wolf]

Soory for bothering but...

at least, we can tell that democracy is never could be completed and always envolving. Another people demands another thing and yet, not all arguments ended with a mutual respect and good points. And we shouldn't hope that all of these people will get mature, sometimes, immaturity of the people itself shows the wolrd, how good the quality of democracy in itself. It depends on the side of "more mature" people, how to deal with those "immature" people that only knows complaining and complaining...

no, i don't argue against democracy, and in fact, i appreciate them... read the history, there always up and downs with every system available. and after a big down, usually a new refinement will be better, and the overall result is better life quality for common people. Well, all did you have to do for comparison is read the history of some nation, that once embrace democracy, but a group of people then took the government control, and throw that thing away, or put "fake" democracy in place... that nation will become more hoorible after that, no mater what their arguments are...

thik this, and you'll thank God, that you life in a good democratic country... autoritharian one that can put you in jail for almost no reason, and firmly tie you with tons of strict regulation...

Cute Wolf

[Pannonian]

Personally I think the biggest sign recently is the fact that CNN won't talk about anything other than Michael freaking Jackson. Nothing else. Not Iran, not Iraq, not Afghanistan, not Honduras, not Congress, not crap. Just Michael Jackson.

Did you know that Princess Di died recently?

[Viking]

[...]

You do really believe that this is an attribute of our time, rather than of our kind; mankind, that is?

[Ariovistus Maximus]

You do really believe that this is an attribute of our time, rather than of our kind; mankind, that is?

Oh, HARDLY! This is certainly part of the human dilemma.

Absolutely; these tendencies have always been in man and in government.

However, I think that as you look at history, you see a cycle.

Thus, we are reaching that part of the cycle where the above issues come up again.

And I think that where you see that part of the cycle, you see that the next part of the cycle involves a measure of disentegration and decay... perhaps even collapse.

Then, as Cute Wolf said, the cycle begins again with a new beginning.

Personally, I think that in each revolution of the cycle, it becomes worse. However, there are a lot of ways to look at it and a lot of historical examples of each.

I guess I would say that it's a two steps forward (getting worse), one step back (getting better). That is partly because of my religious beliefs though.

In summary, I would cite a quote:

"History is simply man committing the same sins in new and different ways."

[Cute Wolf]

In summary, I would cite a quote:

"History is simply man committing the same sins........"

what kind of sins?

[Hax]

Greed, gluttony, laziness, apathy, etc

Though apathy is more like a state of mind. They are not sins, necessarily, but something inherent in humanity.. However, by giving the negative connotation "sin" to the word people will feel like they are committing an evil deed. This is also human. I would say mankind is very paradoxal. We have the hardest time trying not to give into "bad" deeds, yet they are tempting.

[Ariovistus Maximus]

Erm... probably stuff like murder, piracy, robbery, corruption, war, cheating, ...........

That's what I'm thinkin' he was thinkin'.

[Fragony]

Thing is, we have too many politicians and not enough problems.

[Husar]

Complacency is part of the problem here.

Well, Bernie Madoff wasn't complacent, the people who cause the financial crisis weren't complacent, one could say the lack of complacency is a problem in general as well, a lot of thieves, mafia bosses etc. aren't complacent, I'd rather have a population of Andress (plural of Andres) than a population of people who are never complacent and would do anything to further their own goals, whatever it may cost.
I'd even go as far as saying people who illegally download movies and music aren't complacent, many of them only get things illegally because that means they can get more music, more movies AND more of whatever they spend their limited money on instead, could be alcohol, cigarettes, cars, guns or political campaign donations.

The key of course is to find a middle ground where noone gets hurt, but good luck trying to get there, to some extent people have probably tried that since whenever we stopped being complacent monkeys/god created us.

the way i see it, there are both kinds of people and as long as neither side becomes too strong we can have some sort of balance, yin and yang, bananas and apples, marx and gates, something like that.

[Meneldil]

Uhm, yeah. Welcome to the golden age of the 21st century. Sucks don't it?

There's no cure but to keep trying our best until it all crashes and burns, at which point people might get the point.

Personally I think the biggest sign recently is the fact that CNN won't talk about anything other than Michael freaking Jackson. Nothing else. Not Iran, not Iraq, not Afghanistan, not Honduras, not Congress, not crap. Just Michael Jackson.

Don't be sad, the same thing is happening in France.

A typical TV news show goes on like this:
-10 mins of Michael Jackson
-2 mins of random french stuff
-1 min on Iran
-A few seconds on various world event
-2 mins on Sarkozy latest achievement/failure (depending on the channel you're watching)
-5 more mins of Michael Jackson.

That's pretty much it. If the revolution in Iran fails, I'm pretty sure Michael Jackson will have to claim guilty. Not only that, but people were being bored by the events in Iran. They've been told for years that Iranians are extremists nutjobs bent on destroying Israel and the free world, and all of sudden, they discover that there's a large moderate population. Way too intense for the average news-watcher, it wasn't deemed entertaining anymore after 2 weeks.

Ehm, what were we complaining about again?

If you consider that having a full fridge is the final aim to be reached by mankind, then that's kind of disappointing.

[miotas]

When I first read the title of this thread I thought it was about David Carradine...

[Fragony]

Exactly.

The age we live in now, is one where nearly limitless achievments could be accomplished if even a small majority of the population gave enough of a damn. Instead you've got... Michael Jackson's death. Or, "Oh my god, look at the things his father is saying, oh my god he left a will, oh my god look at the funeral procession plans!"

No, "Oh my god, there's a two-front war going on in the middle-east that desperately needs attention." Or "Oh my god, potential badness/goodness in Iran, better keep everyone informed."

I garuntee the last Roman emperor had a full fridge too, so to speak. Right after he filled it up, his empire collapsed.

Or you could just go out and have some fun

[LittleGrizzly]

I was talking to my friends about the Neda video, hardly any of them even knew there was a revolution going on let alone had heard of this Iranian woman. Every single one of them without fail know's Jackson is dead though...

In fairness these people are between 18-21 or 22, so it was always going to be a bad group but i can think of one friend who actually knew something about the Iran protests...

[Fragony]

Got quite a lot of friends from iran, things are quiet now. I don't know exactly when she was shot, but count 40 days from her death they are going to raise hell again.

[Husar]

So what then, is the final aim of mankind please?

That we tech ourselves to death either by turning farmers into physics professors or maybe terminator style by inventing out own doom?
Or maybe we should force people to be interested in politics and rocket science for the sake of freedom?
Should we force people to be more successful in life than Bill Gates?
Should we all take up our guns and riot on the streets in support of iran?
How can you riot when you're supposed to invent stuff and try to be successful and reach for the stars all day long anyway? Rioting too much hurts the economy which finances science...

Quite frankly, I don't think the world would work if every single person was an overeager, overzealous person because competition does not only create greatness, it also creates wars, murder and all other sorts of bad things.

That does not mean that I find the huge coverage of Michael Jackson appropriate or not over the top, but these types who run around clamouring for greatness should not try to force everybody to dedicate their lives to greatness, because all people are different and some are not happy when they have to work their off every day to achieve some arbitrary, unexplainable and unknown greatness that may or may not lie ahead.

[Louis VI the Fat]

I have a fridge and a cellar with plenty of food

My cellar is filled with good wine and excellent beer.

If you consider that having a full fridge is the final aim to be reached by mankind

Well I can't speak for Andres, but as far as I'm concerned: yes, a full fridge and a beer and wine cellar is the pinnacle of human achievement.

You people worry, me and Andres fill our tummies and exchange some red Bordeaux' for an assortment of Leffe's.


There's Probably no Good. Now Stop Worrying and Enjoy Your Life.

I should slam that slogan on a book title, fill it with trueisms about the modern world, sell it to all you atheists with a lingering post-Christian guild complex, and make me a wealthy man.

[Samurai Waki]

theres always something to gripe about, yes, there are many, many things wrong with our society as a whole. And there always will be, irregardless of whose in charge, and how well everyone is doing. Give them nothing and they complain, give them everything and they want more. sorry mate, just the way it is.

[Viking]

There's Probably no Good. Now Stop Worrying and Enjoy Your Life.

Sounds somewhat like a contradiction.

[Caius]

A typical TV news show goes on like this:
-10 mins of Michael Jackson
-2 mins of random french stuff
-1 min on Iran
-A few seconds on various world event
-2 mins on Sarkozy latest achievement/failure (depending on the channel you're watching)
-5 more mins of Michael Jackson.

Wanna feel better? Here would be ours (I dont have a TV, but I know them)
20 minutes on how Swine Flu is spreading. 10 of those are on how the government of the country does nothing. The other 10 are on how the provinces do something, and all complain about how the gov does Nothing.
5 minutes about how the government denies how they lost in the mid term elections.
5 minutes about Michael Jackson.

Talk about something interesting.

[Pannonian]

Wanna feel better? Here would be ours (I dont have a TV, but I know them)
20 minutes on how Swine Flu is spreading. 10 of those are on how the government of the country does nothing. The other 10 are on how the provinces do something, and all complain about how the gov does Nothing.
5 minutes about how the government denies how they lost in the mid term elections.
5 minutes about Michael Jackson.

Talk about something interesting.

When Princess Diana died, the various TV channels notoriously shut down for the day on all subjects but that. Every single channel, every single minute.

[Ariovistus Maximus]

Well, Bernie Madoff wasn't complacent, the people who cause the financial crisis weren't complacent, one could say the lack of complacency is a problem in general as well, a lot of thieves, mafia bosses etc. aren't complacent, I'd rather have a population of Andress (plural of Andres) than a population of people who are never complacent and would do anything to further their own goals, whatever it may cost.
I'd even go as far as saying people who illegally download movies and music aren't complacent, many of them only get things illegally because that means they can get more music, more movies AND more of whatever they spend their limited money on instead, could be alcohol, cigarettes, cars, guns or political campaign donations.

The key of course is to find a middle ground where noone gets hurt, but good luck trying to get there, to some extent people have probably tried that since whenever we stopped being complacent monkeys/god created us.

the way i see it, there are both kinds of people and as long as neither side becomes too strong we can have some sort of balance, yin and yang, bananas and apples, marx and gates, something like that.

Yes, and the problem is that the Madoffs of the world are very active and the rest of us are becoming complacent, thus the Madoffs have an easier way to go.

I'm rather surprised; basically, I keep getting "well, it could be worse so don't worry about it."

Erm, don't we want it to be... better?

But, uh, this is kind of a vague thread about idealistic generalizations anyway. Not expecting to get much accross.

I confess, it is a vague, idealistic thread.

The point, though, would be that we are more interested in what Hannah Montanna is wearing to the next galla then who takes office in Iran or whether or not we get nuked by N. Korea. This is bad.

[Andres]

If you consider that having a full fridge is the final aim to be reached by mankind, then that's kind of disappointing.

Exactly.

The age we live in now, is one where nearly limitless achievments could be accomplished if even a small majority of the population gave enough of a damn.

The world would be such a wonderful place if a) everybody would have a full fridge; b) everybody would be happy with just that.

Limitless achievements? If everybody or even just a significant minority always wants more and more and more... then we will never have a peaceful world where everybody is happy. Never. Jamais. Nooit.

Why can't you be happy with a full fridge? Why do you always want more? For what purpose?

Why not enjoying the simple things, like e.g. being at home while it's raining outside, but you're sitting dry, warm and can have a nice dinner with a good beer/wine, because your fridge is filled and you have some bottles in your cellar. Add to that a book to read or a movie to watch after dinner.

Perfect.

Learn to be satisfied and there's no need for "more" or "limitless achievements".

I'd rather have a population of Andress (plural of Andres) than a population of people who are never complacent and would do anything to further their own goals, whatever it may cost.

Or you could just go out and have some fun

Well I can't speak for Andres, but as far as I'm concerned: yes, a full fridge and a beer and wine cellar is the pinnacle of human achievement.

You people worry, me and Andres fill our tummies and exchange some red Bordeaux' for an assortment of Leffe's.

They perfectly understand what I'm saying If only the rest of humanity would follow.

[Caius]

Hannah Montana?

I think you are generalizing too much. I am worried about politics, and a lot of people are. It isa mistake to cgeneralize. We are worried if some are going to get nuked, or if in Honduras the coup declares war.

[Ariovistus Maximus]

The world would be such a wonderful place if a) everybody would have a full fridge; b) everybody would be happy with just that.

Limitless achievements? If everybody or even just a large minority always wants more and more and more... then we will never have a peaceful world where everybody is happy. Never. Jamais. Nooit.

Why can't you be happy with a full fridge? Why do you always want more? For what purpose?

Why not enjoying the simple things, like e.g. being at home while it's raining outside, but you're sitting dry, warm and can have a nice dinner with a good beer/wine, because your fridge is filled and you have some bottles in your cellar. Add to that a book to read or a movie to watch after dinner.

Perfect.

Learn to be satisfied and there's no need for "more" or "limitless achievements".








They perfectly understand what I'm saying If only the rest of humanity would follow.

I could live with that except...

well, I need a house to put around my fridge. And then of course I have to have electricity to run the fridge, and I need a car to run to the store to FILL UP my fridge, and then I want some friends over to enjoy my fridge with me...

And all that takes $$$, which I have to WORK for...

And besides all that, I like to do stuff besides eat and I hafta pay for THAT...

So Andres, I wouldn't disagree with you! Full fridge is nice. But I hafta pay for that stuff, and there are a few movements out there that display tendencies to impair my ability to do so.