Amusing ourselves to death

[Ariovistus Maximus]

So, this thread is to complain about the horrible modern Western societies we live in?

Let's see. I am not hungry. Nor thirsty. I have a fridge and a cellar with plenty of food, for more than 3 weeks. I have a roof above my head. I need to work 40 hours a week; overtime is well paid. I have savings, I have central heating that keeps me warm during Winter; I don't know which DVD to watch first, which book to read first or which game to play first. My cellar is filled with good wine and excellent beer. I have a car. I can go on holiday two or three times a year.

Ehm, what were we complaining about again?

An interesting point; but this I think is part of the problem.

No offence to you, Andres, but that is a rather complacent viewpoint.

"As long as I have my boat, my truck, and my cabin next to the lake, I don't care what happens with politics."

But that attitude is a perfect way to lose you boat, your truck, and your cabin next to the lake. Or to lose it for your children.

Complacency is part of the problem here.

[Cute Wolf]

Soory for bothering but...

at least, we can tell that democracy is never could be completed and always envolving. Another people demands another thing and yet, not all arguments ended with a mutual respect and good points. And we shouldn't hope that all of these people will get mature, sometimes, immaturity of the people itself shows the wolrd, how good the quality of democracy in itself. It depends on the side of "more mature" people, how to deal with those "immature" people that only knows complaining and complaining...

no, i don't argue against democracy, and in fact, i appreciate them... read the history, there always up and downs with every system available. and after a big down, usually a new refinement will be better, and the overall result is better life quality for common people. Well, all did you have to do for comparison is read the history of some nation, that once embrace democracy, but a group of people then took the government control, and throw that thing away, or put "fake" democracy in place... that nation will become more hoorible after that, no mater what their arguments are...

thik this, and you'll thank God, that you life in a good democratic country... autoritharian one that can put you in jail for almost no reason, and firmly tie you with tons of strict regulation...

Cute Wolf

[Viking]

[...]

You do really believe that this is an attribute of our time, rather than of our kind; mankind, that is?

[Ariovistus Maximus]

You do really believe that this is an attribute of our time, rather than of our kind; mankind, that is?

Oh, HARDLY! This is certainly part of the human dilemma.

Absolutely; these tendencies have always been in man and in government.

However, I think that as you look at history, you see a cycle.

Thus, we are reaching that part of the cycle where the above issues come up again.

And I think that where you see that part of the cycle, you see that the next part of the cycle involves a measure of disentegration and decay... perhaps even collapse.

Then, as Cute Wolf said, the cycle begins again with a new beginning.

Personally, I think that in each revolution of the cycle, it becomes worse. However, there are a lot of ways to look at it and a lot of historical examples of each.

I guess I would say that it's a two steps forward (getting worse), one step back (getting better). That is partly because of my religious beliefs though.

In summary, I would cite a quote:

"History is simply man committing the same sins in new and different ways."

[Cute Wolf]

In summary, I would cite a quote:

"History is simply man committing the same sins........"

what kind of sins?

[Hax]

Greed, gluttony, laziness, apathy, etc

Though apathy is more like a state of mind. They are not sins, necessarily, but something inherent in humanity.. However, by giving the negative connotation "sin" to the word people will feel like they are committing an evil deed. This is also human. I would say mankind is very paradoxal. We have the hardest time trying not to give into "bad" deeds, yet they are tempting.

[Ariovistus Maximus]

Erm... probably stuff like murder, piracy, robbery, corruption, war, cheating, ...........

That's what I'm thinkin' he was thinkin'.

[Fragony]

Thing is, we have too many politicians and not enough problems.

[Jolt]

In summary, I would cite a quote:

"History is simply man committing the same sins in new and different ways."

what kind of sins?

From an Assyrian Tablet called "Dialogue of Pessism" ca. 2800 BC

"The Earth is degenerating today. Bribery and corruption abound. Children no longer obey their parents, every man wants to write a book, and it is evident that the end of the world is fast approaching."

[Husar]

Complacency is part of the problem here.

Well, Bernie Madoff wasn't complacent, the people who cause the financial crisis weren't complacent, one could say the lack of complacency is a problem in general as well, a lot of thieves, mafia bosses etc. aren't complacent, I'd rather have a population of Andress (plural of Andres) than a population of people who are never complacent and would do anything to further their own goals, whatever it may cost.
I'd even go as far as saying people who illegally download movies and music aren't complacent, many of them only get things illegally because that means they can get more music, more movies AND more of whatever they spend their limited money on instead, could be alcohol, cigarettes, cars, guns or political campaign donations.

The key of course is to find a middle ground where noone gets hurt, but good luck trying to get there, to some extent people have probably tried that since whenever we stopped being complacent monkeys/god created us.

the way i see it, there are both kinds of people and as long as neither side becomes too strong we can have some sort of balance, yin and yang, bananas and apples, marx and gates, something like that.

[Ariovistus Maximus]

Well, Bernie Madoff wasn't complacent, the people who cause the financial crisis weren't complacent, one could say the lack of complacency is a problem in general as well, a lot of thieves, mafia bosses etc. aren't complacent, I'd rather have a population of Andress (plural of Andres) than a population of people who are never complacent and would do anything to further their own goals, whatever it may cost.
I'd even go as far as saying people who illegally download movies and music aren't complacent, many of them only get things illegally because that means they can get more music, more movies AND more of whatever they spend their limited money on instead, could be alcohol, cigarettes, cars, guns or political campaign donations.

The key of course is to find a middle ground where noone gets hurt, but good luck trying to get there, to some extent people have probably tried that since whenever we stopped being complacent monkeys/god created us.

the way i see it, there are both kinds of people and as long as neither side becomes too strong we can have some sort of balance, yin and yang, bananas and apples, marx and gates, something like that.

Yes, and the problem is that the Madoffs of the world are very active and the rest of us are becoming complacent, thus the Madoffs have an easier way to go.

I'm rather surprised; basically, I keep getting "well, it could be worse so don't worry about it."

Erm, don't we want it to be... better?

But, uh, this is kind of a vague thread about idealistic generalizations anyway. Not expecting to get much accross.

I confess, it is a vague, idealistic thread.

The point, though, would be that we are more interested in what Hannah Montanna is wearing to the next galla then who takes office in Iran or whether or not we get nuked by N. Korea. This is bad.

[Caius]

Hannah Montana?

I think you are generalizing too much. I am worried about politics, and a lot of people are. It isa mistake to cgeneralize. We are worried if some are going to get nuked, or if in Honduras the coup declares war.

[Louis VI the Fat]

The point, though, would be that we are more interested in what Hannah Montanna is wearing to the next galla then who takes office in Iran or whether or not we get nuked by N. Korea. This is bad.

That's stereotyping! Just because I like Hannah Montana does NOT mean I don't know we invaded the Iran!

[Caius]

I kind of assume as we got wealthier and enjoyed continued periods of stability in the west we have become apathetic to politics... whereas South Americans haven't enjoyed the same wealth and stability so politics is more important to every day people...

When things go wrong, I assure you that politics are important.

[Ariovistus Maximus]

That's stereotyping! Just because I like Hannah Montana does NOT mean I don't know we invaded the Iran!

Sorry; I picked the first one that came to mind.

I didn't say that Hannah Montanna = clueless.

I think that you see what I do mean though.

We are worrying incessantly about pennies and nickles while we waste dimes and quarters.

For those NOT familiar with US currency, we are majoring on the minors and minoring on the majors.

[miotas]

[...]but that is a rather complacent viewpoint.
[...]Complacency is part of the problem here.

The thing is, that all the wars and fighting could indeed be solved by complacency. The solution to war is so simple, all it requires is that everybody simply do nothing.

[Ariovistus Maximus]

The thing is, that all the wars and fighting could indeed be solved by complacency. The solution to war is so simple, all it requires is that everybody simply do nothing.

Yes, if the right people were complacent.

What if war were declared, and nobody showed?

Yeah. However, since the other side is anything BUT complacent, then we cannot afford to be either.

[Rhyfelwyr]

One's security is another's insecurity I suppose...

[A Terribly Harmful Name]

No amount of education will ever prevent the people from being stupid.

The best attitude towards the grievances of the modern world is to shut up, stop worrying and get yourself bread and circuses to death. Enjoy, because the kind of period where every jimmy can have his fridge full does not last much, I would say an optimistic prediction for ours is two centuries before an imminent environmental collapse, bankruptucy or if the overwhelming idiocy of the masses finally leads us to a grievous situation.

[Ariovistus Maximus]

No amount of education will ever prevent the people from being stupid.

The best attitude towards the grievances of the modern world is to shut up, stop worrying and get yourself bread and circuses to death. Enjoy, because the kind of period where every jimmy can have his fridge full does not last much, I would say an optimistic prediction for ours is two centuries before an imminent environmental collapse, bankruptucy or if the overwhelming idiocy of the masses finally leads us to a grievous situation.

The essence of what I'm trying to point out here.

It's VERY obvious in our education system.

We could have the best materials and teachers in the WORLD, but it won't matter a jot if the students don't want to learn.

Best case they'll memorize the bare info to get through class. Summer vacation > out it goes to the mental landfill.

[Sheogorath]

The problem is our leaders.

Leaders are supposed to, you know, LEAD. But, here in the US at least, virtually every politician is focused on getting reelected rather than actually doing anything. The people who motivate the masses, who can get people to not be apathetic, don't care. They, as has been mentioned, have full fridges and, therefore, every interest in maintaining the status quo, and a stupid population.

The institutionalized bribery (AKA: Lobbying, special interest groups, etc. (I do realize that not ALL lobbying groups use bribery, some simply give information, which is fine and good.)) which plagues the US government is, in my opinion, the cause.
The grease on the wheels has congealed to the point where the machinery has effectively been jammed and only a serious jolt ever causes any movement.
The problem is, the gears in the machine are the ones who have the power. They certainly aren't going to vote for less grease if they can help it.

My main hope for Obama was his inexperience. Everybody said this was a negative point, but I held out some hope that 'inexperience' meant 'less corrupt'. Sadly, day by day, he seems intent on dashing that hope.

Short of outright revolution, the only way to solve the problems of the government would be sweeping reforms which, I think, Obama could pull off. He has the support of the people, for now at least, but the question is, of course, whether he is a Democrat, or an American. Can he act for the good of the state and the people first, or is he just another Politician?