Amusing ourselves to death

[Ariovistus Maximus]

I wish to see the full letter or published work the quote comes from to see if there is any missing context or explanation around it. Doesn't saying that the rulers should not be trusted with government alone indicate that they are to be trusted with some measure and yet the next statement claims that only the general public and not the rulers should be trusted?

Certainly the gov't should be trusted with leadership. Or what's the purpose of government?

But am I going to trust the government to save me while I sit on my duff and get drunk? Ummm, no.

Agreed. We are much better off now than we were in the olden days.

YAY! We can commit the same evils in new and different ways!!! And with new tools in different environments!!! WOHOOOOOOOOO!

Some of you need to realize that knowing how many stripes are on the flag and what they mean does not equate a productive populace.

If this is as deep as you look into things, it's no wonder you're having trouble with this. Try more than skimming the surface...

No, the farmer does not depend on knowing the name of the 1st President to succeed in his profession.

However, when people around me behave like the following, I find it rather discouraging:

George Washington...? Ummmmm, uhhhhh....

OOOOOHHHHHH!!! MICHAEL JACKSON!!! HE'S MY HERO!!!!

It speaks to the condition of society and where it's priorities are. And when it is so painfully obvious that we are more interested in amusement than in the preservation of our freedom, I think it indicates (and history shows) that the loss of freedom is not far off.

By the way, I'd encourage you to check out that word: amuse.

The root word = muse, which means to think.

"A-" is a prefix meaning the absence of

Thus, amusement literally means the absence of thought.

So, when people actually pay money to have their intelligence suppressed, and when people would rather go to amusement parks than to museums (see that word there?) I think we have a problem.

Interesting that we can quote lines from our favorite movies, and we know hundreds of our favorite songs by heart, but we cant recite the the pledge of allegiance or remember the national anthem.

Does it look to you like people are interested in maintaining their freedoms? Looks to me like anybody could step up and rip it away and many people wouldn't notice.

As long as the dictator gives them free beer and lets them keep all their TV channels, he can do whatever he wants.

Of course, when he actually GETS what he wants, the free beer and TV go away, unless it is convenient for him to let them continue...

[Louis VI the Fat]

If this is as deep as you look into things, it's no wonder you're having trouble with this. Try more than skimming the surface...


By the way, I'd encourage you to check out that word: amuse.

The root word = muse, which means to think.

"A-" is a prefix meaning the absence of

Thus, amusement literally means the absence of thought. When people would rather go to amusement parks than to museums (see that word there?) I think we have a problem

I am afraid you mix up Greek and Latin. Indeed, 'museum' is rooted in Greek 'muse'. And 'a' in Greek means 'absense of'.

However, amusement is a French word, via Latin. The 'a' here means 'to', as in the Fench word 'à'. 'Muser', while possibly distantly related to Greek muses, here has a different meaning: 'a trifle', 'a diversion'. (Note the a's here are English 'a', and do not mean 'not' or 'to' )

Amusement then, is 'to divert oneself with entertaining matter'. The very wod preserves
the notion that it is trivial, and that hence there are graver matters. A man's mind should not be exclusively given to the pursuit of only either one.

[Viking]

but we cant recite the the pledge of allegiance or remember the national anthem.

A joy for a dictator would be to have his people learn a national anthem and have them to pledge allegiance. Freedom opens up for diversity; what you describe could only work against it.

[Strike For The South]

I don't really know what your on about other than trying to pump yourself up as the lone freedom fighter in a sea of unwashed peasants.

We gained our freedom when 90% of the country was illeterate and lacked formal schooling. So were going to lose it now?

[SwordsMaster]

Well, a lot of what you say is right (the OP that is). I have myself first coyly, and every day more seriously considered that the governments across the world should legalise duels. That would make people think before they talk, because sometimes those words would be returned to them with a bullet or on the wrong end of a sword. Which should also cut down on lawyering costs and teach people some responsibility.

[Lord Winter]

Yet the enlightenment was an elitist movement. Yes, this was the ideal but you can't start preaching the end of the world just because we fail to live up to our utopias.

[Ariovistus Maximus]

A joy for a dictator would be to have his people learn a national anthem and have them to pledge allegiance. Freedom opens up for diversity; what you describe could only work against it.

A dictator can also function quite well if the masses are too ignorant to know what he' up to or to stand up to him. ;)

Stupidity is not freedom. Stupidity lessens your freedom.

Except in the sense that if you are so ignorant that you don't know what freedom IS, I guess you wouldn't miss it...

Education is essential to the preservation of a free state.

Want to verify that with the historical record? Go ahead; it's all there.

You will notice a pattern that the uneducated people are the ones doing manual labor for the educated ones...

I don't really know what your on about other than trying to pump yourself up as the lone freedom fighter in a sea of unwashed peasants.

We gained our freedom when 90% of the country was illeterate and lacked formal schooling. So were going to lose it now?

First of all, I don't see what you're on about me being on something.

I do agree though, that argumentum ad hominem is fun. Shall we pass it around?

If, however, I have really given that impression, and you're not just out to cry "goody two-shoes" because it makes you feel good:

Then I will clarify and state that I am hardly trying to give that impression. If, however, you (that is, a general "you all") can't recite the pledge of allegiance to your country, or if you couldn't pass the citizenship test if you were required to do so, then I suggest you study up on a few things.

I hardly want to put myself on a pedestal, and I think you're making some assumptions to get there.

However, I'm hardly going to back down and say that ignorance is a good, happy thing and that we can just sit around and wait for someone else to work on our problems.

To use your example:

The thing, strike for the south, is that when BOTH you and the bad guy can't read, that's even.

However, when the bad guys start to read and the good guys STILL can't read... then I think it's time to learn a bit.

[Ariovistus Maximus]

Yet the enlightenment was an elitist movement. Yes, this was the ideal but you can't start preaching the end of the world just because we fail to live up to our utopias.

No we can't, but wouldn't it make sense to try and make it better?

Yes, it could be worse. So what? It could be better!

It's not the end of the world. Who said it was? So how about we work on it a bit?

You will also see in the cycle of history the following:

Generation A suffers from poverty, lack of education, or the like. So when they become old enough to do something about it, they will work extremely hard to pull themselves out of the problem.

After an incredible amount of effort (often social upheaval or even war), these people will establish themselves, making a life much better than what they had before.

Having reached this point by their own hard work, they have the skills and diligence to KEEP the things they earn.

Then they die. Their hard-earned possessions are passed to their kids, generation B. Now, their kids didn't get the wealth for themselves, but they have had a solid upbringing and have lived through a few hard times too.

So then they die, and pass their not-so-hard-earned possessions to THEIR kids. Now, generation B wanted their kids to have AAALLL the things they DIDN'T have when they were kids. So they give all this stuff to generation C.

Generation C hasn't had to work for any of it. They just had it passed to them. So they think it grows on trees. Of course, as they get older, they learn a few things about that.

But they die and pass it on to generation D. Now, generation D is SOOO far off from the original generation that did all the work, and they have had everything handed to them on a silver platter. So they become proud, wasteful and abusive of those less fortunate.

So much so that the lower class of society suffers from poverty, poor education, and the like. (Sound familiar?) And the cycle begins again.

See what I'm saying here? Thus, society tends to degenerate. So I suggest we work out a few things.

[Lord Winter]

Name one generation which was significantly better then ours. Why so?

By resorting to this idealistic nihilism you are ignoring the successes that we have achieved in this time. A black man is president when 50 years ago he couldn't vote, the fact that we even consider the poor and minorities is a giant step forward. Instead of proclaiming the downfall of the west, why not try to address the wrongs you see in the world? Progress is not made by looking back on some non existent golden age, or even looking at the present. True progress only looks at the possibilities of the future.

[a completely inoffensive name]

When people talk about how much disappointment they have in the current generation it reminds me of this xkcd:
http://www.xkcd.com/603/

[Viking]

A dictator can also function quite well if the masses are too ignorant to know what he' up to or to stand up to him. ;)

Stupidity is not freedom. Stupidity lessens your freedom.

Except in the sense that if you are so ignorant that you don't know what freedom IS, I guess you wouldn't miss it...

Education is essential to the preservation of a free state.

Want to verify that with the historical record? Go ahead; it's all there.

You will notice a pattern that the uneducated people are the ones doing manual labor for the educated ones...

I am sure the school children of North Korea are well educated about the greatness of Kim Jong Il.

Knowledge alone cannot grant anyone freedom; nor can a critical view on things. But a combination of knowledge and a critical view, I am sure can help keeping dictators at bay; as long as it found in masses, of course. I keep pledges and national anthems as far away from me as possible as a means of preserving a critical view.

[Jolt]

In summary, I would cite a quote:

"History is simply man committing the same sins in new and different ways."

what kind of sins?

From an Assyrian Tablet called "Dialogue of Pessism" ca. 2800 BC

"The Earth is degenerating today. Bribery and corruption abound. Children no longer obey their parents, every man wants to write a book, and it is evident that the end of the world is fast approaching."

[Husar]

You will notice a pattern that the uneducated people are the ones doing manual labor for the educated ones...

So your point is we should educate everybody to the point where noone does manual labour anymore?

Didn't someone link to an article about how manual labour isn't as bad as many people say/think lately?
It's a good thing to have a looooong list of bookmarks.

So yeah, and now what's bad about that? And is it really true or is it sometimes so that the happy people are doing manual labour for the never-satisfied egomaniacs?
Just because someone is in the management doesn't necessarily mean he or she is intelligent or even supporting freedom and democracy, their education can make them selfish, think they are superior, look down on less educated people etc, traits you find in oligarchs, nobles and dictators...

[Melvish]

Here in Canada you have to get an education to get a manual job. If you didn't have some kind of education (school or self-learned). You're pretty much un-employable (and the state will strongly compel you to get one AND pay for it).

I don't like the guy that refined this theory and shown how effective it is at turning a country around but he was right on this one. You reform a country by beginning with the youth education(by youth i mean less than 18-21 years old.). The values they are inculcate with will remain for their life and there is a good chance they will past them down to their children. This 'solution' can be use for good or for evil. Give them strong moral values and teach them how to think for themselves. Make them value knowledge and debate rather that sports and fashion.

The old saying "A country is only as good as it citizens" is quite true you know.

[Ariovistus Maximus]

So your point is we should educate everybody to the point where noone does manual labour anymore?

Didn't someone link to an article about how manual labour isn't as bad as many people say/think lately?
It's a good thing to have a looooong list of bookmarks.

So yeah, and now what's bad about that? And is it really true or is it sometimes so that the happy people are doing manual labour for the never-satisfied egomaniacs?
Just because someone is in the management doesn't necessarily mean he or she is intelligent or even supporting freedom and democracy, their education can make them selfish, think they are superior, look down on less educated people etc, traits you find in oligarchs, nobles and dictators...

Hardly what I was implying. Think HISTORICALLY now...

I was referring to slavery and serfdom. See?

[Strike For The South]

Ah yes. The good ol days. Where women couldn't vote and minorties were more or less on the level of dogs and heavy machinery.

The good ol'days were hardly good and its rather insulting to sit here and say they were.

I would argue a socitey that imopsed property regulations for voting and kept people in bondage is hardly what a nation state should aspire for. Even the greatest generation had a quasi caste system.

If these people worked so very hard and knew all there civics why would they do this to groups of people? Why would the McCarthy hearings happen?

[a completely inoffensive name]

Why would the McCarthy hearings happen?

Fear, which overrode any logic.

[Husar]

Hardly what I was implying. Think HISTORICALLY now...

I was referring to slavery and serfdom. See?

You mean where the romans had greek slaves who taught their kids because they were really clever people from a country that had happened to lose a war?
Nobles during the middle ages couldn't all read and write either, some of them were just better educated in the sense of how to club a peasant.
I'm not sure education decided who ruled who, I'd rather think who ruled who decided who got better education and who didn't.