KOTF OOC Thread

[econ21]

This may be a better place to respond to GHs query in the sign-up thread:

BTW, if you have time, I would love to hear your opinion on how the Battle of Trent, which ended KotR, went. Your opinion would mean a lot to me.

Well, as the dying Boromir said to Aragorn: "You did what I could not." That was a really well administered tabletop battle. I jumped ship because I just could not find the time to pull it off, so I understand how much went into overseeing it. I am glad you got the "tabletop" system to work as I really like the system of giving orders, allowing for breakdowns in communication and fog of war etc. I suspect it simulates the problem of command better than electronic Total War battles (MP or SP). But it is so time consuming it may be best reserved for the truly climactic engagements. Not only does the umpire have to devote a couple of weeks worth of evenings/weekends etc to it, the rest of the game has to be frozen for one battle that would be resolved in a couple of hours if it were vs the AI.

As for the battle itself, I think it was Lothar who put it best: it was an execution, not a battle. Hats off to Rameses for that shocking twist. Indeed, my general impression with the tabletop battles is that they are decided before the first shot is fired - by numbers. The method of combat resolution tends to emphasise attrition rather than tactical brilliance (with FHs turn 4 at Bern being a jaw dropping exception), so that the battle is determined by who turns up with the better army. I am not sure we came up with good, well understood mechanics for resolving that in WotS or KotR, since civil war was not part of the initial game design, but may be the successor game has cracked that. Personally, I am looking forward to getting into character (hopefully one with lots of vices n virtues) and writing some stories in this new game rather than engaging in open civil war, but then again contemplative peace-loving nobility probably did not thrive in the middle ages...

[TinCow]

Indeed, my general impression with the tabletop battles is that they are decided before the first shot is fired - by numbers. The method of combat resolution tends to emphasise attrition rather than tactical brilliance (with FHs turn 4 at Bern being a jaw dropping exception), so that the battle is determined by who turns up with the better army. I am not sure we came up with good, well understood mechanics for resolving that in WotS or KotR, since civil war was not part of the initial game design, but may be the successor game has cracked that. Personally, I am looking forward to getting into character (hopefully one with lots of vices n virtues) and writing some stories in this new game rather than engaging in open civil war, but then again contemplative peace-loving nobility probably did not thrive in the middle ages...

LotR had mixed success with PvP. The battles themselves worked pretty well, with several tabletop battles being fought without any problems as well as two multiplayer battles, which were great for spectators because the battle replays worked properly. However, the rule set for LotR made it difficult for a battle to occur in the first place and this made civil wars pretty anticlimactic for most of the game. Part of the current discussion for the next game is how to resolve this problem.

That pretty much sums up how I feel about LotR in general: many improvements that made the game better, but lots of flaws with the system that prevented it from really coming into its own. Fortunately, a lot of those problems were ironed out along the way so we don't have to deal with them anymore. The 'Royal Army' system that was pioneered in KotR has transformed into an excellent and very efficient system for private ownership of military units, as have the rules for IC legislation and OOC rule changes. The built-in ability for the GM to launch 'events' at will also helps a great deal. However, the House structure and the PvP mechanics were never properly polished up during the game and we're still trying to resolve the problems with them now.

[Snowygerry]

Greetings,

I’ve been an avid follower of your subforum since the days of KotR, always in a lurking capacity due to lack of
full internet privileges at work.
Let me tell you, the joint efforts of you guys have helped me spend many a quiet afternoon in this place, for which you have my thanks.

I decided to join now, firstly because I can , but mainly to remind you that there are probably a lot of people following your exploits who never register because they can’t, or just don’t take the trouble to do so.

I would be tempted to join the next instalment of your game (be it in some minor capacity), there is however one obstacle remaining so don’t regard this as an official sign up yet.
Although I now have full internet access both at work and at home, my actual gaming comp is not connected to the web, and it would require some juggling with dvd’s and usb – sticks to get the whole thing set up.
As soon as a workable mini-mod and some saves are up I will do some experimenting.
Some tips from people who have faced similar problems, especially with regards to uploading saves would be welcome.

Regards.

[Rowan]

Greetings,

I’ve been an avid follower of your subforum since the days of KotR, always in a lurking capacity due to lack of
full internet privileges at work.
Let me tell you, the joint efforts of you guys have helped me spend many a quiet afternoon in this place, for which you have my thanks.

I decided to join now, firstly because I can , but mainly to remind you that there are probably a lot of people following your exploits who never register because they can’t, or just don’t take the trouble to do so.

I would be tempted to join the next instalment of your game (be it in some minor capacity), there is however one obstacle remaining so don’t regard this as an official sign up yet.
Although I now have full internet access both at work and at home, my actual gaming comp is not connected to the web, and it would require some juggling with dvd’s and usb – sticks to get the whole thing set up.
As soon as a workable mini-mod and some saves are up I will do some experimenting.
Some tips from people who have faced similar problems, especially with regards to uploading saves would be welcome.

Regards.

Welcome, I was in the same boat as you when LotR was starting, having spent many a boring hour at work following KotR, but never signing up.

If you can get the M2TW/Kingdoms and LTC transferred to your gaming PC the saves shouldn't be too much of a hassle, they are much smaller. You can practice the whole thing by installing all the LotR stuff and trying to load one of the LotR saves. I'd imagine that the process for KOTF will be quite identical, except for requiring Kingdoms.

[Snowygerry]

Welcome, I was in the same boat as you when LotR was starting, having spent many a boring hour at work following KotR, but never signing up.

If you can get the M2TW/Kingdoms and LTC transferred to your gaming PC the saves shouldn't be too much of a hassle, they are much smaller. You can practice the whole thing by installing all the LotR stuff and trying to load one of the LotR saves. I'd imagine that the process for KOTF will be quite identical, except for requiring Kingdoms.

Both MTW and Kingdoms are already installed, and I installed several other mods (Third Age Total War being the last one - amazing job those guys did) so that shouldn't be too much of a problem.
I'm more worried about taking and uploading saves in a reasonable amount of time, as I have to take the save, copy it, play the game, transfer the save and upload it again (whitin a couple of hours I believe?).

As soon as the game gets started, I will do some tests, and see how it goes.

[Zim]

Welcome Snowygerry!

Are your gaming and internet computers both at home? If so getting the save from one to the other shouldn't be too hard. I used to have to do the same.

I should have the rules finalized within the day. Tomorrow I'm also going to get LTC on my computer and see about whatever minimod we're using. Once that's done we can recruit our rbs and set up an order for people to pick their avatars.

I forsee the first Council session opening very soon, within the week depending on how long the minimod, picking characters, etc. takes. Main thing is it might be after this weekend. The 4rth is going to be pretty busy for me (stuck doing guard duty for an event Friday-Sudnay) but my schedule clears completely starting Monday.

[AussieGiant]

So I'm about to purchase Kingdom's via Amazon. Once I freshly install MTWII and Kingdom's then I'm in position to apply the mods.

Can someone please confirm?

[Snowygerry]

Welcome Snowygerry!

Are your gaming and internet computers both at home? If so getting the save from one to the other shouldn't be too hard. I used to have to do the same.

I have internet - access at work, and at home I can use the connected computer of a roommate, so using an usb-stick for the save, I really only foresee timing issues.
(Being off-line on weekends, roommate being busy etc.)

Furthermore since I’m planning on starting out with some minor character, quite a lot of orders can be given by simple text messages, updating an SOT-thread etc, so quickly down/uploading the save will probable not be necessary each and every turn.

Anyway thanks for the welcome and I’ll keep you posted.

[Rowan]

Indeed, my general impression with the tabletop battles is that they are decided before the first shot is fired - by numbers. The method of combat resolution tends to emphasise attrition rather than tactical brilliance (with FHs turn 4 at Bern being a jaw dropping exception), so that the battle is determined by who turns up with the better army.

Based on my experience fighting the Battle of Antiokheia I'd say there's also a big part of "He who makes the least mistakes, wins."
There are just too much things to remember to take everything into consideration when giving orders and trying to prepare for all eventualities. As such I think it simulates the role of army commander in medieval times quite well, you have to trust your lieutenants to take initiative and messengers for the overall picture.

For example, if woad&fangs had used his ram the western wall would have fallen and the whole battle would have been completely different, with most of the fighting mainly on the narrow streets. The whole southern sally would have been a sideshow, or it would have never happened if the southern ram had reached the gate before Bart & Tagaris. And at deployment I forgot to explicitly state that the troops should be positioned on top of the walls and not behind them and guess where GH put them Or committing my reinforcements I drew a map with a pretty arrow pointing towards the western gate, while in the actual orders only saying "gate". And guess where they went? Not west.


It would be a bigger workload for the umpires, but if there's another big (multiple generals on both sides) tabletop in KOTF I'd like us to expand on the "You only know what you can see or what your messengers tell you" -angle.
Basically all commanders receive a textual representation of the battle based on what they can see or what messengers tell them. This would require the overall commanders to stay on higher ground where they can observe the battle. Committing their reserve (which they would be commanding) would be a last ditch resort because their control of the battle would then be lost until they could extricate themselves from the battle again. Subordinate commanders wouldn't have the same overall knowledge of how the battle is going, only their immediate surroundings, even less if engaged in battle.