KOTF OOC Thread

[Ramses II CP]

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(1) I always thought there were "reverse impact" casualties on charging cavalry (at least attacking spears frontally) - ie that cavalry lose extra men at the moment of impact. Is that people's experience too? Or is it just my imagination? If it you do lose cavalry on impact, surely that would raise the cost of repeatedly charging and withdrawing? Even if it were true, I guess the 2HPs of the BGs insulate you from that to some extent.

(2) I always thought braced spears negated the charge bonus of cavalry attacking them frontally. Is that true? If it is true, I can't see the charge and withdraw tactic having any benefit if applied frontally against them. If so, I guess FH and Tristan etc just avoid charging braced spears frontally. Or maybe it was only true in the older games (STW, MTW)?

Looking at the battle reports, my eyebrows do rise at seeing the King repeatedly leaving a decent army behind him to go and fight alone at 1-10 odds. It might be challenging for you, but it seems odd in character and out of character just brings home the feebleness of the AI. However, you can take that with a pinch of salt. I guess Philippe is just a bad ass (I have read historical accounts of a few knights defeating much larger numbers of foot). Players are free to play in the style they wish to. If we start telling each other what to do OOC, we will stop having fun. If I get a chance tonight, I may try out your tactics against the German remnants you mentioned in Flanders.

1. If you watch a cavalry charge striking a line of set spears in slow motion you'll see that a certain percentage of the cavalry are unhorsed on impact (They fly right over the horse's head). One of the reasons that other mods, Stainless Steel for example, made heavy cavalry companies smaller is so that this number would have a larger effect. Even 2 HP cavalry (Or more than 2, ala Broken Crescent) suffer this effect, hitpoints are no guard against it. I believe it happens even to generals, although I don't have any direct evidence in screenshots to prove it, but it's pretty simple to avoid losing your general. Make your cavalry line so that your general is lined up to 'wrap' the edge of the spear formation. That way his charge doesn't hit the front of the line and he won't be unhorsed.

2. To the extent of my knowledge this is correct only at the moment of impact, as soon as the formation breaks open, which happens almost instantly, the remaining cavalry complete their charge as normal. The more dense the formation the better it holds form against cavalry. Actually the best way to take a BG's charge, from a player's perspective, is to have to overlapping companies of spears set at an angel (A wide V for 2 companies, or for schiltrom one braced square and two bobs o_o). The charge will only strike one company of spears properly, and as soon as the charge hits you order the second company to engage at will against targets that are still trying to fight their way into the braced spears.

You need to keep in mind that, even with this info, spears do far better against a charge than other infantry. I had two companies of mounted sergeants charge some DFKs at Marseille. They lost 3men and left only 6 of the DFKs behind because the DFKs had effectively no defense. If I had pulled the charge trick off correctly I wouldn't have needed to lose any men, or perhaps just one as they withdrew, but I was watching another part of the battle.

[AussieGiant]

You need to keep in mind that, even with this info, spears do far better against a charge than other infantry. I had two companies of mounted sergeants charge some DFKs at Marseille. They lost 3men and left only 6 of the DFKs behind because the DFKs had effectively no defense. If I had pulled the charge trick off correctly I wouldn't have needed to lose any men, or perhaps just one as they withdrew, but I was watching another part of the battle.

Well that's pretty depressing.

[Cecil XIX]

Well that's pretty depressing.

Agreed. Are there any mods that focus soley on the AI which we could install on top of LTC Gold?

[AussieGiant]

Agreed. Are there any mods that focus soley on the AI which we could install on top of LTC Gold?

Is there a realism mod?

[econ21]

Well that's pretty depressing.

Swords were always weak vs cavalry, but with the mod DFK stats have been nerfed quite a bit. I'm not a great fan of the change as it seems to be for "balance" rather than realism. But it's not that bad for gameplay. DFKs used to be pretty uber. Now they are just offensive infantry roughly equal to armoured spears, who are defensive/anti-cavalry infantry. They will have their role e.g. in sieges, I am sure; just not in receiving a cavalry charge.

Agreed. Are there any mods that focus soley on the AI which we could install on top of LTC Gold?

I don't think it's a matter of the AI so much. From Shogun onwards, a good player has always been able to get a lot done with their bodyguard(s) against the AI. (Their bodyguards as part of their army - this solo bodyguard army concept is new to me). It's just we have very good players and the early AI has not built up so much, so the advantage is more noticeable: the AI is not fielding full stacks and their troops are largely lowest tier. I remember in KotR towards the end, the Egyptians started fielding large elite armies that made me blanche (Mameluke horse archers plus those scarey axe wielding dudes).

Given what I have learnt about LotR and from this game, if we were starting again, I would have suggested nerfing bodyguards a little. What the realism mods for RTW gravitated towards, IIRC, is give them one hit point not two and make them smaller, say halve them. That would cut their power statistically to 25% of what it is now.

Raising the base morale of units might also help as I suspect part of what is going on is players engineering a AI morale collapse. There are probably large morale penalties from having cavalry charging your rear, seeing friends rout etc. The RTW realism mods generally give harder battles because the AI clings on, rather than routing early.

I am not sure if we want to make such changes now that the game has started, but it probably would not be hard - just a matter of editing one txt file. Maybe we could consider it as a rules change at the next Conseil?

(a) Reduce bodyguard units to one hitpoint.
(b) Half the unit size of bodyguards.
(c) Add 10 to each unit's morale.

But who knows, maybe attitudes will change when we start seeing player generals die (as they did quite often in KotR and LotR).

[Ibn-Khaldun]

That hitpoint thing is a bit over rated.
Those default 2 hit points are not that important actually. Generals do die quite often as we saw in LotR. I myself lost an avatar when I tried to pull off Methodios
More important are those traits and ancillaries that give extra hitpoints.

[Vladimir]

I believe that the stats for RBG units are good but not great. What truly sets them apart are the hitpoints and ability to regenerate. Consider that if you half the hitpoints you diminish their strength by more than half.

Reducing hitpoints and unit size may be too much.

[woad&fangs]

I'd support halfing the unit size, but I think reducing the hitpoints is a bit much.

[Cultured Drizzt fan]

I don't have much to add..... I am fine with whatever happens. I was kind of amazed at some of the things people have been pulling off. I have always been far to timid when it came to bodyguards I guess.....

[Ituralde]

I withhold my judgement until I've fought a battle myself. I'm always afraid of loosing my general. While most of us are very capable of handling even weakened bodyguards we don't want it to turn into frustration for those of us who aren't as uber.