if i ever got a motorcycle...

[Hooahguy]

Are the Patriot Guard Riders actually all crazed patriots/nationalists though? I would think most of them just want to let people get a decent funeral.

bah! most of them are like me and you. they love america and deeply respect the soldiers and hate to see funerals for them disrupted by the wackos.

[HoreTore]

bah! most of them are like me and you. they love america and deeply respect the soldiers and hate to see funerals for them disrupted by the wackos.

While I may not love my country or respect soldiers, I absolutely hate people who disrespect funerals. If anything in this world is sacred, it's got to be funerals.

There absolutely nothing that can justify it. You simply don't put even more sorrow to people who are already suffering. Someone has lost a loved one. I don't care what you think of the him or their actions, you leave them alone.

[Louis VI the Fat]

Here's someone begging for an ad hominem attack. Poor show

'Poor Show' is a mocking insult aimed at provoking another member, called 'Show' - Arthur Foxache.

[Crazed Rabbit]

@ Louis

2. People are actually immigrating to Greece, in the tens of thousands, if not more. You see, Greece is, together with Spain and Italy, one of the three main entries for immigrants to the EU...

So do they actually stay there, or move on to a different final destination?

Are the Patriot Guard Riders actually all crazed patriots/nationalists though? I would think most of them just want to let people get a decent funeral.

You're right. They just want to prevent the WBC from interfering.

CR

[Louis VI the Fat]

Americans thumping their chest about freedom of expression? Maybe the US should've stood up for freedom of expression instead of crushing it, and democratic Greeks would not have been so touchy about the US nowadays:

Alexis Papachelas's The Rape of Greek Democracy: The American Factor, 1947-1967

is a splendidly researched, soundly reasoned, and tightly written investigation of the roots of the crisis in Greece's hybrid "crown democracy," of the plot that led to its overthrow, and of American involvement in what Margaret Papandreou aptly called the "Nightmare in Athens."

In writing his history of Greece in the 1960s, Papachelas's primary sources are the records created by extremely interested foreign observers: the diplomats of the United States Foreign Service. Since few Greek primary sources are available (outside of the voluminous record of the colonels' trial), the author has supplemented his American archival treasure trove with a judicious use of the press and also of interviews with many of the participants, including some of the coup makers and their acolytes.

Link

Phred Phelps can shout whatever he wants, yet the US supported and aided the torture and murder of any Greek democrat who so much as dared utter the words 'all men are created equal with unalienable rights as life and liber...'

[Hooahguy]

hey now, you know the American people have little say in foreign affairs. we can yell and shout all we want, but the gov wont pay much attention.

[Louis VI the Fat]

Yet the individual Greek was held personally responsible for everything that goes on in Greece?

Hey, I owed the Greeks a bit more understanding of their view of the world, after being harsh about their new museum. It is a complicated world. As the saying goes: to understand everything is to forgive everything.

[Hooahguy]

i never said that. just dont blame the people for what the government does behind its peoples backs.

btw my knowledge about greece pretty much stops after Rome takes over. and a bit of it during WWII, so dont expect me to make any real argument about greece in the 20th century.

[HoreTore]

So do they actually stay there, or move on to a different final destination?

Both, as with every other european country... With the possible exception of us at the top, ie. Norway, Sweden, Finland and England. I don't think there's a lot of africans dying to migrate to the north pole....

[rasoforos]

And that's the type of eloquent an elegant analysis that has led to modern day Greece being a leader among nations, full of intelligent people making great advances for all humanity in their fields, and making Greece a shining example of modern nations in all facets; including social harmony, medicine, standard of living and tolerance. No wonder they are such a great beacon of civilization, an example to other nations not only in Europe, but around the world! It is clear to me know why other countries beg and grovel for Greece's approval, to be let into the special groups Greece leads. No wonder Greek culture permeates the US, from our televisions to our books and art. Such dominance is but the inevitable result of such thinking as displayed above.


CR

Now to the main post:

Yes I have something against 'patriots'. The problem with them is that, sooner or later, they consider anyone who disagrees with them as 'non patriotic', 'traitors', 'enemies of the state' etc etc. Just think of what 'patriotic' germans were doing in WWII while 'traitors to the reich' were risking their lives to end the war or to resque Jews and other opponents to the Fuhrer's folly. Just waving a flag about and singing the national anthem does not make you a patriot. Being a thinking citizen, willing to risk their life to protect your nation from becoming a cancerous growth run by Machiavelian 'patriots' does though.

Any average Joe can take a bike and a flag and play toy soldiers. That doesn't make them anything...

Anyway, I was trying to make a point that it should be the State that should ensure the sanctity and respect of a person's funeral. And that indeed there should be laws that protect the poor relatives from such abuse. It is not the role of vigilantes to ensure that. Anyone's funeral should be respected and protected by law. Does anyone actually disagree that this should be the case?

[Hooahguy]

it should be the State that should ensure the sanctity and respect of a person's funeral

they kinda have. there is a 500 foot or something like that protest limit. but that cant stop the mourners from hearing the WBC chants. and that cant stop the mourners from seeing the signs. thats where the patriot guard comes in. they stand in front of the signs holding flags so the mourners cant see them, and when they are chanting, the PG rev their motorcycles to the family cant hear them.
the government cant do all of that, protecting the family like that.

[rasoforos]

they kinda have. there is a 500 foot or something like that protest limit. but that cant stop the mourners from hearing the WBC chants. and that cant stop the mourners from seeing the signs. thats where the patriot guard comes in. they stand in front of the signs holding flags so the mourners cant see them, and when they are chanting, the PG rev their motorcycles to the family cant hear them.
the government cant do all of that, protecting the family like that.

Great, here we are paying our respects to someone we love... to the sound of reving engines. All we need now is Mel Gibson in a Mad Max outfit...

...of course some countries have rather silly legal systems that, since the WBC makes no effort to hide that they are targeting the funeral, are inciting hatred, show anti-social behaviour, would put them in jail, far far away from the funeral.

So the result would be a decent funeral. No wackos chanting abuse, no motorcycles reving, so you can actually hear the priest and have closure. But now who would want that? And what nonsensical legal system would that be...

Am I making my point clear now? The solution is legal reform and not 'patriotic' hell's angels...simple as that.

[Hooahguy]

Great, here we are paying our respects to someone we love... to the sound of reving engines. All we need now is Mel Gibson in a Mad Max outfit...

better than hearing "your son will burn in hell."

you cant lock these people up. they have the right to speak whatever they want, even if they incite hatred. Revered Wright incites hatred and hes not in jail, is he?
thats what makes america what it is. freedom of speech.

[Louis VI the Fat]

With such great knowledge of all matters European me and my associates would have no problem selling you the Eiffel Tower, the Colosseum, and the Parthenon in no time.

I think you'll have great problems selling anybody the whole of the Parthenon any time soon.

[Hooahguy]

And here I was talking about people with single-digit IQ's...

once again, id bet money that they have a higher IQ than you do.

[Banquo's Ghost]

I would appreciate a little less abusive rhetoric in this thread, please.

Thank you kindly.

[Crazed Rabbit]

Now to the main post:

Yes I have something against 'patriots'. The problem with them is that, sooner or later, they consider anyone who disagrees with them as 'non patriotic', 'traitors', 'enemies of the state' etc etc.

So you've got a problem with a very narrow field of people, and you insist that anyone patriotic is really this evil sort of person? And you do that with no evidence, just your own prejudices?

Just waving a flag about and singing the national anthem does not make you a patriot.

These people aren't just doing that. They're traveling great distances to help families of fallen soldiers have a peaceful funeral, because of their love for their country and the people who defend it.

Any average Joe can take a bike and a flag and play toy soldiers. That doesn't make them anything...

You Do Not Understand. It's sad, but quite simple; these guys are not 'playing toy soldiers'. It's like you just hate everyone who loves their country and isn't some paranoid nut looking for 'Machiavellian' conspiracies. And so you make up ridiculous accusations about how patriots are the type of people who support nazis or attack anyone who doesn't agree with them.

But that's not how it is here. Maybe we Americans are simply more enlightened or compassionate. But to be a patriot here means nothing of that.

Anyway, I was trying to make a point that it should be the State that should ensure the sanctity and respect of a person's funeral. And that indeed there should be laws that protect the poor relatives from such abuse.

We hold the right to free speech pretty high here. The state should not ban these hateful scum from having their say, but they can't spare the personnel to form a wall like these patriot guard riders do.

It is not the role of vigilantes to ensure that.

These aren't vigilantes, unless you are using some definition that doesn't exist.

Anyone's funeral should be respected and protected by law. Does anyone actually disagree that this should be the case?

Yes, it if means violating the right to free speech.

of course some countries have rather silly legal systems that, since the WBC makes no effort to hide that they are targeting the funeral, are inciting hatred, show anti-social behaviour, would put them in jail, far far away from the funeral.

Again - freedom of speech. Inciting hatred? Anti-social behavior? Welcome to a free country. I can understand your confusion.

The solution is legal reform and not 'patriotic' hell's angels...simple as that.

Not everyone on a bike is a member of an outlaw gang.

CR

[Rhyfelwyr]

American patriotism is a different kettle of fish from the nationalism we see in Europe, especially of the kind it was being compared to in this thread.

these hateful scum

This is a pet peeve of mine but... don't you think what you said is a bit hypocritical?

[Crazed Rabbit]

This is a pet peeve of mine but... don't you think what you said is a bit hypocritical?

How so? They are hateful - full of hate - and they're scum. But they still got the right to free speech.

CR

[Rhyfelwyr]

How so? They are hateful - full of hate - and they're scum. But they still got the right to free speech.

CR

Using a nasty word like scum gives the impression that you hate them.

If you just want to express distaste, there's no need to be so harsh.

[Crazed Rabbit]

Using a nasty word like scum gives the impression that you hate them.

If you just want to express distaste, there's no need to be so harsh.

Hmm. I feel sad for them more than anything. But I do think there's a need to be harsh.

CR

[Rhyfelwyr]

Hmm. I feel sad for them more than anything. But I do think there's a need to be harsh.

CR

Fair enough. I don't agree with the Phelps btw, I do this for everyone, even racists etc...

It is like Louis said in another thread which I now can't find, which went something along the lines of... if you understand people, you never hate them.

[HoreTore]

Fair enough. I don't agree with the Phelps btw, I do this for everyone, even racists etc...

It is like Louis said in another thread which I now can't find, which went something along the lines of... if you understand people, you never hate them.

"To understand everything is to forgive everything".

And Buddha said that some time before Louis did

[Rhyfelwyr]

"To understand everything is to forgive everything".

And Buddha said that some time before Louis did

That's it... oops.

[Louis VI the Fat]

"To understand everything is to forgive everything".

And Buddha said that some time before Louis did

Buddha? Huh?

It is a French proverb: 'Tout comprendre, c'est tout pardonner'.

[Meneldil]

Again - freedom of speech. Inciting hatred? Anti-social behavior? Welcome to a free country. I can understand your confusion.

Oh come on now. Do you want people here to list all the times free speech was threatened and/or harmed in the US ?

If you still think the US is a beacon of freedom, then well, I'm kind of sad for you. It would be as stupid as believing France is the embodiment of liberty, equality and fraternity.

People are flocking to the US and Europe not because they think they'll have more freedom, but because they think they'll make more money than in their own country. You're deluding yourself if you think otherwise.

[Vladimir]

While I may not love my country or respect soldiers, I absolutely hate people who disrespect funerals. If anything in this world is sacred, it's got to be funerals.

Okay, whoa, time out, really OT but, WTF? You just created a thread where you demonstrated that Norway has one most sensible governments on the planet. You were a soldier FCOL!

[HoreTore]

Buddha? Huh?

It is a French proverb: 'Tout comprendre, c'est tout pardonner'.

Buddha came before your modern french language, Louis. Unless you can prove it to be an old gaellic proverb, you're pwned

Okay, whoa, time out, really OT but, WTF? You just created a thread where you demonstrated that Norway has one most sensible governments on the planet.

I like my social democracy. But some 20% of my countrymen wants to destroy it, so I can't honestly see how I can love my country... And anyway, my love is reserved for women.

You were a soldier FCOL!

Still am, for another 23 years. But you see, as long as you don't hate the military, you're still a recruit Once you start hating everything about it, you're a soldier.

[Vladimir]

That's cool. I know it's not as extreme as it looked but it was odd given recent posts.

[Louis VI the Fat]

Buddha came before your modern french language, Louis. Unless you can prove it to be an old gaellic proverb, you're pwned

Buddha is like Churchill: every quote is attributed to him.

I would argue that 'emphatic understanding' is not a core concept of Buddhism, but rather of European thought. But instead, for the sake of fun, here's a page where....baboomtish...Chinese explore the origin of the quote, it's place in Western thought, and what Chinese Buddhists can learn from it:

http://sinofrance.org


It is a proverb of unknown origin, the oldest known version is from Mme de Staël, 'Corinne, ou l'Italie': Tout comprendre rend très indulgent. [et sentir profondément inspire une grande bonté]. To understand all is to become very lenient.
I haven't been able to trace it further back. I do not think we need to. The quote fits perfectly in the new eightteenth century thought about empathy, penal reform, individual dignity. The quote is not related to Zen, it is related to the origin of human rights.