A Question to Christians

[Ice]

Why does someone who devotes their lives to their Christian faith while continually sacrificing and helping others deserve to die at a such a young age? I just don't understand god's "logic here". What I'm talking about is an old RA of mine. She was recently killed in a car crash along with her boyfriend. Now this girl honestly was one of the nicest, religious, and helpful people I have ever met. Why on earth would the all power god allow her life to be taken like this? I know things like this happen every day, but this really hits closer to home. I know so many low lives who really don't contribute anything to society. Why not take their life instead of this wonderful girls?

I'd really like to hear your logic on this one and all the other meaningless deaths that happen daily.

[Lemur]

You're digging around the age-old question, "Why does an omnipotent God allow bad things to happen to good people?" Believe it or not, this debate is older than the internets.

The Book of Job is a great place to start.

[||Lz3||]

She was so good that God wanted to have her besides him. That way she could help even more people from above.






Disclaimer: I'm not religious. The above was something said to me by someone I do not remember when I asked a similar question.

[CBR]

You're digging around the age-old question, "Why does an omnipotent God allow bad things to happen to good people?" Believe it or not, this debate is older than the internets.

The Book of Job is a great place to start.

Hm but Book of Job is a bit tricky as it depends on what one focuses on: The bit about staying the course no matter what or the idea that a supernatural being is willing to smash up your life in a bet with another supernatural being. The former is good for he who already believes and the latter makes the non-believer shake his head in disgust...or something in between.


CBR

[Lemur]

Nevertheless, Job is the most sustained meditation on injustice and horror befalling God-fearing people in the entire Bible. Nobody said that it needs to be easy to understand.

[CBR]

That is true. At least us non-believers won't have to fear getting involved in such a bet.


CBR

[Samurai Waki]

All we have to decide is what to do with the time given to us. I think she decided to spend her time well.

[rory_20_uk]

1. God Works in mysterious ways, his wonders to perform
2. Going to a better place
3. Rewards will be in heaven
4. Part of his infinite plan

I'm sure there are others...

[Philippus Flavius Homovallumus]

Why does someone who devotes their lives to their Christian faith while continually sacrificing and helping others deserve to die at a such a young age? I just don't understand god's "logic here". What I'm talking about is an old RA of mine. She was recently killed in a car crash along with her boyfriend. Now this girl honestly was one of the nicest, religious, and helpful people I have ever met. Why on earth would the all power god allow her life to be taken like this? I know things like this happen every day, but this really hits closer to home. I know so many low lives who really don't contribute anything to society. Why not take their life instead of this wonderful girls?

I'd really like to hear your logic on this one and all the other meaningless deaths that happen daily.

Your question presumes two things.

1. That God makes decisive intervention in the lives of individuals, rather than guiding intervention.

2. That God differentiates between those he deems worthy of saving and those he deems not worthy of saving.

Neither are the acts of a Just and Loving Universal Father, which is the traditional view of the Christian God.

I do not for a moment fail to acknowledge the tragedy of your friend's death, but I believe that God loves universally, and that he has given us all free will. In order to save your friend he would have had to violate the free will of others, perhaps many others, in doing so he would not love universally, nor would he be just.

So, to answer your question directly, God did not save her, not because he does not love her, but because he loves everyone else as well. Unfortunately, that means he has to let us do stupid and hurtful things to ourselves and each other.

[Ice]

So, to answer your question directly, God did not save her, not because he does not love her, but because he loves everyone else as well. Unfortunately, that means he has to let us do stupid and hurtful things to ourselves and each other.

Why?

[Philippus Flavius Homovallumus]

Why?

Ever seen what happens to a child if you indulge it's every whim? Keep it safe from every danger? Never let it go out in the sun?

What value has a puppet without someone to pull the strings?

Without free will we are completely and utterly worthless, in every sense, we are reduced to machines performing a pre-set function.

Such a conception of hummanity is not compatable with Christianity.

[Beskar]

God thought she was so good, he decided to reward her early for such a good service with eternal paradise.

Is dying such a bad thing?

[Lemur]

Without free will we are completely and utterly worthless, in every sense, we are reduced to machines performing a pre-set function.

Such a conception of hummanity is not compatable with Christianity.

Not to be overly pedantic, but free will versus predestination is not a settled matter that all Christian faiths aree upon.

[Philippus Flavius Homovallumus]

Not to be overly pedantic, but free will versus predestination is not a settled matter that all Christian faiths aree upon.

I'm well aware of that, but I have yet to encounter a theory of predestination which does not contradict the conception of God as "Universal Father".

Edit: Amd here's Rhy to prove both our points.

[Rhyfelwyr]

Not to be overly pedantic, but free will versus predestination is not a settled matter that all Christian faiths aree upon.

Thank you!

Have a ballon!

Partly for what you said, partly as a bribe for my double post...

[Viking]

Ever seen what happens to a child if you indulge it's every whim? Keep it safe from every danger? Never let it go out in the sun?

What value has a puppet without someone to pull the strings?

Without free will we are completely and utterly worthless, in every sense, we are reduced to machines performing a pre-set function.

Such a conception of hummanity is not compatable with Christianity.

With almighty powers, you would not need pain and extreme suffering to create meaning. Most people make their way throughout life witouth getting eaten by a lion or toasted by a nuclear bomb, or any other extraordinary painful experience I'd rather not go through.

[Rhyfelwyr]

There are all sorts of ways in which God will show himself through those who believe in Him. Some Christians will go through life happily with God sustaining them in their faith and being merciful and generous towards them... you know the type, big house, happy marriage, attends BBQ's and singalongs with the local Baptist church, dies happy in old age etc - it's God showing just the shadow of his promises to whoever believes in Him. For others, they might have a life devoted to serving God, say for example a missionary working in a jungle or in a hostile environment - it's God showing the changes He makes in people so they can be a light to the world. For others, they might honour God through a life of suffering and humility, with the extremity varying from monks withdrawing from the world, to the sort of stuff that happens to Job - it's God showing the strength of faith regardless of the persecution people face for it. And of course there's lots of mixtures of these in different people.

Every single Christian will bear good fruit in their lives, through whatever means. From the description you gave of this person (I'm not sure what 'RA' means), she clearly did. It's harder to tell what purpose such a sudden and unexpected death might serve... if it was a more drawn out death it could have been to show a life of suffering as mentioned above, but obviously dying suddenly in a car crash will not have served this person herself for any purpose. But the Bible does say that Christians are "vessells unto honour", and so I think that certainly any major events in a Christians life will in some way serve to glorify God, which should be their purpose. Maybe after the trauma of her death is felt by her relatives, they will seek God... that would be gaining eternal life as a result of a temporal death. Who knows what could have happened as a result of it?

Harsh as that maybe seems, remember in Christianity everything is in absolute terms... compared to a person's salvation, what else matters? God is not being brutal when Christians face such tribulations, because part of the nature of the faith which He gives us is that we become totally selfless, and will gladly sacrifice our lives in the name of godliness (which is what our suffering is in the name of). For all Job faced he persevered to the end, as God always knew he would, and now he's sitting in heaven with your friend, with his life having been an inspiration to many Christians and perhaps even some other people. Whatever the horrors we think they faced when our thinking is clouded by the flesh and the world, they will be reconciled to God, and thinking "vanity, vanity, all else is vanity!".

[Vuk]

Why does someone who devotes their lives to their Christian faith while continually sacrificing and helping others deserve to die at a such a young age? I just don't understand god's "logic here". What I'm talking about is an old RA of mine. She was recently killed in a car crash along with her boyfriend. Now this girl honestly was one of the nicest, religious, and helpful people I have ever met. Why on earth would the all power god allow her life to be taken like this? I know things like this happen every day, but this really hits closer to home. I know so many low lives who really don't contribute anything to society. Why not take their life instead of this wonderful girls?

I'd really like to hear your logic on this one and all the other meaningless deaths that happen daily.

This is a world of life and death. New life cannot be made without old life ending. God never promised that those who believe in Him will be invincible. This world short, it is what happens after this world that counts. People who do not believe in that put so much importance on this world, but the Christians can live knowing that no matter what happens in this life, they will inherit the earth and live forever in a world without pain or greed. This world is just here to test our faith anyway, so it is not so important. I am a decreasingly religious man of late, but I think that will answer your question.

[Philippus Flavius Homovallumus]

The conversations in heaven are generally considered to be allegorical, to illustrate Job's piety. To suggest the human author had access to the minutes from the Court of Heaven is patently absurd.

Philosophically speaking, there is a difference between the highly unlikely and the absurd. One can posit a way for man and God to interact, one cannot posit a way for a living man to directly witness that which happens in Heaven, because it is closed to living men.

Though I recognise your point.

This is a world of life and death. New life cannot be made without old life ending. God never promised that those who believe in Him will be invincible. This world short, it is what happens after this world that counts. People who do not believe in that put so much importance on this world, but the Christians can live knowing that no matter what happens in this life, they will inherit the earth and live forever in a world without pain or greed. This world is just here to test our faith anyway, so it is not so important. I am a decreasingly religious man of late, but I think that will answer your question.

I always find this view deeply depressing, it implies that this life has no value, that our joys, sorrows, loves etc. have no meaning. If that were true then not only would life itself be a cruel joke on the part of God, it would be a useless test of character as well.

After all, if life on Earth has no intrinsic meaning then once one realises this one would "fail" God's test because your mortal existence would be nothing more than beurocratic box-ticking in your application to eternal life.

[Vuk]

I always find this view deeply depressing, it implies that this life has no value, that our joys, sorrows, loves etc. have no meaning. If that were true then not only would life itself be a cruel joke on the part of God, it would be a useless test of character as well.

After all, if life on Earth has no intrinsic meaning then once one realises this one would "fail" God's test because your mortal existence would be nothing more than beurocratic box-ticking in your application to eternal life.

Not really. While we have this life, it is all that we have. The assurance of something greater allows us to devote our lives to making the world a better place for others, and not worry so much about petty things, which lets you enjoy life more.
This world is not some sick test chamber that God set up. He created it perfect, without new life and without death. The sins of Adam and Eve cursed them with death, which made new life necassary. God blessed us with free will, and we abuse that and sin of our own will. Because of that Jesus had to die for our sins. That is why a say it is a test of sorts. Jesus has given us the gift of eternal life which is free for us to accept.
Your Christian friend probably would be a lot less distraught at the idea of dying than most athiests who only have this world to live for, and if she is correct, has an eternity to live.

[Philippus Flavius Homovallumus]

Not really. While we have this life, it is all that we have. The assurance of something greater allows us to devote our lives to making the world a better place for others, and not worry so much about petty things, which lets you enjoy life more.
This world is not some sick test chamber that God set up. He created it perfect, without new life and without death. The sins of Adam and Eve cursed them with death, which made new life necassary. God blessed us with free will, and we abuse that and sin of our own will. Because of that Jesus had to die for our sins. That is why a say it is a test of sorts. Jesus has given us the gift of eternal life which is free for us to accept.
Your Christian friend probably would be a lot less distraught at the idea of dying than most athiests who only have this world to live for, and if she is correct, has an eternity to live.

See, now that reads quite differently to your last post. For what it's worth I agree with the above; more or less.

[Vuk]

See, now that reads quite differently to your last post. For what it's worth I agree with the above; more or less.

Nah, it is the same thing as my last post. I just emphasized different things in response to your and Ice's different posts.

[Hosakawa Tito]

Why does someone who devotes their lives to their Christian faith while continually sacrificing and helping others deserve to die at a such a young age? I just don't understand god's "logic here". What I'm talking about is an old RA of mine. She was recently killed in a car crash along with her boyfriend. Now this girl honestly was one of the nicest, religious, and helpful people I have ever met. Why on earth would the all power god allow her life to be taken like this? I know things like this happen every day, but this really hits closer to home. I know so many low lives who really don't contribute anything to society. Why not take their life instead of this wonderful girls?

I'd really like to hear your logic on this one and all the other meaningless deaths that happen daily.

I doubt anyone can answer your questions in a manner that will prove satisfactory. Speaking from personal experience I can say that one shouldn't allow this feeling of injustice & sorrow to develop into anger & hate. One can't help how they feel, but one can control how they think. Life is what it is, and there are no pat answers as to why bad things happen to good people sometimes.

[rotorgun]

First of all, to Rhyfelwyr, that's about the best way I have heard it put in some time, and much of what you say is how I think on the question. When I last experienced a similar feeling towards El Supremo for taking a close friend of mine, I had to search the scriptures. I was drawn to the story of Lazarus's raising from the dead by Jesus. Initially, when he was brought the news of his death by Lazarus's sisters, we are told that he wept. This is proof that God felt the pain of their loss as much as they did. After he was confronted by one of them as to why he had let Lazarus die, when he could have been there to save him, he remarked something to the effect that it was by this that the power of his father could be made manifest-that he has the ultimate power over life and death.

I don't want to sound trite, or patronizing for I certainly feel your loss with you friend. I only want to ask, does not the rain fall on the just and the unjust at the same time? None of us can escape our fate, but God can use our lives, no matter how short or long they may be, for his good and the good of others.

I pray for the family and friends of this sister christian.

[Evil_Maniac From Mars]

See it this way - we, as humans, do not know what death entails, the exact details of what happens. Only God knows this. We cannot claim to know what God's plan for us is, or how we are to be rewarded or punished until it actually happens.

[Ice]

Answers received... much appreciated.

Mods can lock this now

[Banquo's Ghost]

As requested.

[naut]

Why does someone who devotes their lives to their Christian faith while continually sacrificing and helping others deserve to die at a such a young age? I just don't understand god's "logic here". What I'm talking about is an old RA of mine. She was recently killed in a car crash along with her boyfriend. Now this girl honestly was one of the nicest, religious, and helpful people I have ever met. Why on earth would the all power god allow her life to be taken like this? I know things like this happen every day, but this really hits closer to home. I know so many low lives who really don't contribute anything to society. Why not take their life instead of this wonderful girls?

I'd really like to hear your logic on this one and all the other meaningless deaths that happen daily.

Well. This ain't heaven. If everything was fine and dandy here, then concept of a heaven would be redundant.