Injecting French "colour" into KotF

[econ21]

This first post is updated to record where we are in terms of choosing the right French/French flavoured words for some key game concepts.

For most concepts, players are free to use either Anglicised or French names - the latter are given in brackets.

Four starter Houses:

Burgundy - capital: Dijon; home of the Burgundians
Lorraine - capital: Reims; home of the Lorrains
Aquitaine - capital: Toulouse; home of the Aquitains
Bretagne - capital: Rennes; home of the Bretons

Parliamentary terms

We meet in a Council of the Realm (Conseil du Royaume).
All nobles are Councillors (Conseillers).
Every session, the day to day running of the Kingdom is overseen by the Seneschal.
We propose edicts (edits) as our laws
We live according to the rules of our Charter (charte)
We can ammend the Charter by issuing proclamations

Feudal ranks

Faction leader is the King (le Roi)
Faction heir is the Dauphin. Other sons of the King are Princes.
Then we have:
Duke (Duc)
Baron
Count (Comte)
Knight (Chevalier)

Original post:

Spoiler Alert, click show to read: 

Now we have settled on France as the faction, it might be helpful to think about what that implies for the terminology etc used in the game.


Naming the Houses

We start off with five provinces: Toulouse, Dijon, Rennes, Paris and Rheims.
So the obvious allocation is that Paris stays royal (it's central and the capital) while the Houses are formed round the other four Houses:

Dijon - SE
Rheims - NE
Toulouse - SW
Rennes - NW

If we go for that, what should we call the factions? And what do we call the people of that faction?

I propose:

Dijon - Burgundy; Burgundians. Stretches a little east, but evocative. Yes, there is a rebel province of that name, but presumably we have aspirations so I am not sure it matters too much.

Rheims - Bretagne or Brittany; Bretons.

Toulouse - Gascogne or Gascony; Gascons. Stretches a little west, but evocative. Possibly not as prominent historicall as some of the other names for other Houses, but does the trick for me.

Rheims - Campania or Champagne; Campanians. Champagne may be the better name than its alternative Campania, but I can't get over the wine associations. Champagne seems to have been quick important in medieval French history, but unfortunately for us had a Count, not a Duke. Lorraine is a possibility, but is stretching things a bit.


Castles vs cities

There is a potential problem with Toulouse being the only castle - that may advantage the faction with that starter province. We could make Toulouse royal and Paris the basis of a House, but that just feels all wrong to me. What I suggest instead is that the Prince be made head of the Toulouse House - he may be a less partisan Duke than most.


The Dukes

Aside from the King and Prince, there are only two family members and they are both very young (one year old or so). There exist 3 other non-royal generals. Presumably they should be the other three Dukes (along with the Prince). Do we have rules for them to "stewards"? Because I think they should be supplanted by family members when they come of age.

What are we going to do about adopting into the family? The fourth branch of the family tree has not been opened. I would prefer we let it be filled by a child rather than an adoptee. (then the Houses may start off more equal). What do people think?


The Senate

What terminology shall we use for:

The Senate- National Assembly? (Senate or Parliament are also possibles)
The Chancellor - Seneschal? Chief Minister?
The Speaker - President? (do we have a speaker in the rules? I guess the King takes that role)
Senator - Deputy?
Edicts? Laws? - I'd keep with edicts as the term seems to cover both policy decisions (invade Britain!) as well as legislation proper.
Constitution? Charter?
Constitutional Amendments? Charter Amendments?


French or Anglicised names?

To what extent shall we use French vs Anglicised terms? I'd be inclined to leave it to individual players, but it would be interesting know what others prefer as we will probably coalesce around the majority usage. I've emboldened my subjective preference, which is generally for the French version with some exceptions. I'd probably draw the line at including French accents etc, as my keyboard is not set up for them.

King or Roi? vive le Roi!
Prince or Dauphin?
Duke or Duc?
Count or Comte?
Knight or Chevalier?
Battle of or la battaille de?
Brittainy or Bretagne?
Gascony or Gascogne?
Champagne or Campania? - just can't get over the wine associations
Burgundy or Bourgogne? - I prefer the Anglicised for some reason

and if we go for French names, "le" or "the"?


Any other issues?

Anyone think of any other issues to do with injecting French colour and feel into our game?

[Cecil XIX]

Naming the Houses

Sounds good.

Castles vs. Cities
Didn't only Swabia and Bavaria start with castles in KotR? I'm pretty sure we can get by with militia early in the game, especially if a house has six units of bodyguards.

The Dukes
Like KotR right? That seems like a good idea.

[KnightnDay]

Instead of the senate, maybe Assembly of the Second Estate. The States-General would have been members of all three estates, and since we are playing members of the nobility, that would put us in the middle category, clergy and commoners comprising the other two.

[woad&fangs]

Iirc, Dauphin was not used until the 1300s to identify the prince.

[_Tristan_]

As for House names, I think we should rather go like this :

Rennes = Bretagne

Toulouse = Navarre

Reims = Either Champagne or Lorraine. The latter would particularly work if we include Metz into the realm fast.

Dijon = Bourgogne seems fine.

As for titles, Seneschal sounds fine for the title of Chancellor

As for the assembly, the assembly of the second-estate was established much latter. At the time, such a thing didn't truly exist but a Conseil Royal (royal Council) or Conseil du Royaume (Council of the Realm) or High Council (Haut Conseil) would be the nearest thing we would have with the members dubbed Conseillers (Councillors).

Edicts should be Edits
Constitution would be Charte (the term constitution didn't appear until the French Revolution).

Amendments should be Proclamations.

[Zim]

I think it might be a good idea to keep to the Anglicised rank names (people had problems with the ranks in LOTR...) but like Seneschal for the rank of Chancellor.

I like Tristan's House names.

I'm not too bothered about holding Dukeships until an FM comes along. I set up the rules to exclude starting RGB Dukes from the requirement to join their new parents' House if adopted. As far as I'm concerned even if adopted into the family tree they would be the heads of their own influential families. I'm open to it being convinced otherwise but at the moment I don't think making several starting players sort of dukes while waiting on fms to come of age adds much to the game, and having all the Houses headed by direct children of the King seems a little off rpwise (granted, Medieval History is not my strong point. Perhaps it isn't so odd). Of course, the Prince will head one of the Houses.

Perhaps discussion of starting House rules (as opposed to things like their names that are more "color") should be done in the rules thread...

[econ21]

Tristan, what words do you think would be suitable as names for the local people of Navarre, Champagne and Lorraine? Like in Kotr, we would talk of Swabians, Austrians etc. I'm assuming Bretons and Burgundians are ok for the other two areas you mentioned.

[Cecil XIX]

For the record, I would prefer a geographical naming scheme as well.

[AussieGiant]

Oh please Tristan. Your written English is excellent.

The only thing I know how to say in French is:

"Je suis ananas!!" And I need help spelling that right now.

Thanks for the tip Zimmy. I didn't know Flaxywas French. Good to know.

[mini]

As I'm from belgium, I speak dutch/french and english

with some german and spanish on the side :p
So I don't care either way about the names.

[Andres]

As I'm from belgium, I speak dutch/french and english

Same here.

[AussieGiant]

Same here.

Good god Andres, your Belgique??

[_Tristan_]

I didn't know Flaxywas French. Good to know.

He's not. He's CANADIAN

Vive le Quebec Libre !!!

[TinCow]

Thanks for the tip Zimmy. I didn't know Flaxywas French. Good to know.

I think he's Quebecois.

[AussieGiant]

Oh god.

A Quebecois, he seems so relaxed and likeable chap...totally not what I remember from Montreal.

I'm just stirring.

[TheFlax]

No everyone from Montreal is crazy AG.

Since I'm not a separatist, I refer to myself as a Canadian usually. (Although I don't mind being referred to as a Quebecois)

Enough digressing.

I take we are pretty much settled on the four house names?

[Cecil XIX]

Speaking of flavor, there was a book I discovered a while back called 'A Knight's Own Book of Chivalry'. It's a translated treatise by a French knight from the Hundred Years' War named Geoffroi de Charny, who died in the Battle of Poitiers where he had the honor of carrying the Oriflamme. It's a very good resource, as it was commissioned by the King of France to serve as a manual for a new order of French knights that the King had hoped to create.

As far as I know, it's the only book of chivalry written by an actual medieval knight. I highly recommend it.

[TinCow]

Speaking of flavor, there was a book I discovered a while back called 'A Knight's Own Book of Chivalry'. It's a translated treatise by a French knight from the Hundred Years' War named Geoffroi de Charny, who died in the Battle of Poitiers where he had the honor of carrying the Oriflamme. It's a very good resource, as it was commissioned by the King of France to serve as a manual for a new order of French knights that the King had hoped to create.

As far as I know, it's the only book of chivalry written by an actual medieval knight. I highly recommend it.

Very interesting. One comment I would make though is that for those seeking to be historically accurate, the starting date of our game (1080) is still in the early period of chivalry. It certainly existed at that point, but I don't think it was quite as popular or with as much of a formalized code as it achieved by the 13th and 14th centuries. I feel like in France in 1080, chivalry as we know it now was still in its infancy. That should make for some interesting story lines for anyone who wants to pursue it; determine what a proper code of chivalry IS and how exactly a chivalric knight behaves. Does it apply only to other knights? How about to heathens? How closely is it connected to the Church, and how closely to politics?

Food for thought.