PvP mechanics brainstorming thread

[ULC]

Mercs are indeed better then their equivalent counterparts, usually by a full valor bar if not more. They also tend to be cheaper, but have a higher upkeep, IIRC.

Mercenary availability can be changed easily enough - a high pool size coupled with a slow pool regrowth would most likely fit what we are after. This means there will be enough for everyone, even if it is only one Merc, but they cannot be farmed.

I'll even change the parts of the file that deal with this if everyone wants me too - should be in desc_strat.txt

[Cecil XIX]

Perhaps this has already been settled, but I don't like the idea of Civil Wars affecting the ability of neurtral parties to prioritize. Historically, warfare between vassals wasn't uncommon, and wouldn't necessarily affect people elsewhere. I suppose it's to encourage neutrals to put pressure on combatants? If so, that sounds like a bad thing to me.

[Ibn-Khaldun]

You can change mercenary spawn rates in descr_mercenaries.txt file.

And I like TC's proposal for using Merc units as Civil War "units". It's simple.

Also, if there are no mercenary units available in your region then you just can't recruit them. You just have to wait until a new unit appears in game. Mercenaries don't grow on trees you know!

So yeah.. No mercs=No recruitment.. You don't like it? Deal with it IC then..

[Vladimir]

For clarification: It might seem like I'm discounting Econ's work. I'm not. I appreciate the time, effort, and thought put into his proposals. However, when I look at some of these rules it just seems like work. Therefore, I'd like to use what's already available in the game. Especially if merc recruitment is easily modified.

I think of it as the Gordon Ramsay approach to Total War.

[econ21]

I agree with Cecil - I'd think we should leave the neutrals to go about their business. As a notable and long lasting neutral in KotR, I appreciate his perspective on that. So I want to propose the following, as a slight refinement of the draft based mechanic:

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1) Every other turn, civil war participants (combatants) can prioritize (draft) one unit in each settlement they own or have conquered during the war, regardless of their normal prioritizations.

2) Civil war prioritizations take precedence over ALL other monetary expenditures in the game and are done by the GM when implementing combatants' move orders.

3) When a combatant is no longer at war, he must give orders to the GM to disband one full strength unit for every unit drafted during the war.

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The main differences from TCs earlier proposal are (a) making drafting alternating turns rather than 5 out of 10 turns (less book keeping); (b) tieing drafting to settlements - this will make capturing settlements of some strategic importance in the war; (c) letting neutrals get their prioritisations in civil war.

I honestly can't see how anyone can criticise the above for being complex. There is no book-keeping, except when a war ends, when the GM needs to know how many units you drafted. However, since you have publicly posted your prioritisations, so verification is not a problem.

In terms of how to come to a decision, what I suggest is that players who want an alternative set of rules for recruitment in the civil war come up with a formal proposal, laying out the rules. I wonder if this could be done within the next 24 hours? We can then put the alternatives to Zim to either choose or let us vote on it. Staying with the current draft rules - where civil war recruitment is just as in peace time - will be one alternative in any vote.

[econ21]

To respond to the mercenaries ideas, I really think this is a blind alley for lots of reasons.

[rant mode on - apologies in advance]

You can change mercenary spawn rates in descr_mercenaries.txt file.

First off, I am very leery of us modding more than we need to. If a modder had helped Tristan to do our KotF mod so that we were ready to play, I might think more kindly of the proposal. As it is, we haven't yet been able to mod a few names, let alone mod a new system for mercenary spawn. Modding mercenary spawn is actually a complex issue - what about in periods of peace? Are we to enjoy ample mercs? to foreswear any mercs? will the AI foreswear? what mercs do we want? how often for each type? where do merc zones of recruitment lie in relation to our provinces? It just sounds a nightmare. In what way is that simpler than rules 1-3 above? CA has done a great job with the mercenary pool - if it ain't broke, don't try to fix it.

By contrast, allowing to combatants to recruit their own men from their own settlements is so easy and feels so right: these are the men the game is saying are available to recruit in your settlement. They are the men whose training buildings you have queued over time, whose quality reflects the development of the settlement; who differ depending on whether you are in city type or a castle type settlement; a keep or a fortress etc. All the things we might have to worry about with mercs are not a problem with recruiting from our own settlements. Again, CA have done all that for us - the men are in the recruitment pools, we just need some OOC rules over whether and how much we can access them in civil war if the Chancellor hates us.

Also, if there are no mercenary units available in your region then you just can't recruit them. You just have to wait until a new unit appears in game. Mercenaries don't grow on trees you know!

So yeah.. No mercs=No recruitment.. You don't like it? Deal with it IC then..

Next time someone tells me to deal with a matter of "physics" IC, I will scream. By "physics" I mean the reality we are supposed to be simulating. Whether there are men on your land who will join you does not depend on whether your neighbouring lord has recruited them first. They are your vassals, not his. The whole reason we are discussing recruitment during civil war is because of the fear that an unscrupulous Seneschal will pump up his pals, starve you and set his pals on you. If he is going to those lengths, don't you think he would take care to empty the merc pool in your area before declaring war?

And BTW how exactly can you deal with anything IC in a civil war? IC relations are being determined by military power which is being determined by the OOC rules for recruitment during civil war. It's circular reasoning. Merc pools are empty, which I don't like so I have to deal with that IC? How exactly? By dying at the enemy merc's blade?

I don't get what is the problem that mercenaries are supposed to solve? To identify which units where drafted so that you know what to disband? But is that really a good thing? If you know you are going to lose your draftees in game, you will make them the first to die in battle. Makes sense in game. In real life, it would be a recipe for mass desertion, draft dodging, low morale, internal dissension and revolt etc. Its just gamey. Better when the war ends just disband a number of men about equal to the number you drafted. In real life, a smart commander would probably try to integrate the draftees into existing more veteran formations, rather than keep a bunch of noobs together as deadmeat.

[rant mode off - sorry I had to vent]

Anyhow... as I said, if someone really thinks basing civil war recruitment around mercenaries is a good idea, I suggest they write up proper rules for it (and ideally test out or at least distribute a modded file) so we can come to a decision. I don't think it will be easy.

[Vladimir]

There's no need to react so strongly to the mercenary option. That simple aspect of the game doesn't have to change if it's too complex. I proposed them as one aspect of a clear, straightforward system. Limiting their recruitment to one per turn is like the settlement recruitment you're suggesting.

Is this about approximating reality? If so then we should also add the supply script and a few other add-ons. I though this was about developing an effective way to handle player vs. player combat. Attempting to approximate strategic reality with a tactical game isn't wise.