Overestimation

[Drisos]

Lol! :)

I reinstalled Shogun last week and tried some campaigns. Made some errors in battles etc, but in general it went pretty well. I ran over the enemies like I did before. So, Drisos, did you win 'em? Ehmmm no, actually. I only won 1 out of 5 campaigns. (1 of them I didn't complete because of a CTD - I didn't have a recent savegame and didn't feel like going though it again.) 5-1-1=3... So how did I lose those three campaigns, in all of which I was having the upper hand? :S

.....
here's the story

My families were killed off. I seem to be uncautious with my daimyo's unit, (and with units containing heirs)... In a Mori 1530 campaign I lost him in conquering Kawachi from Oda. I sent him across the bridge, which ruined the enemy's formation, chasing him etc. I focused on getting the rest of my army across the bridge properly, and my daimyo got caught up in a fight. Then still, I didn't focus on him... after a while of fighting, he had died and still I didn't really care. I realised that I had no heirs only when I got the defeat screen.
In a Imagawa 1530 campaign I had something similar, not paying too much attention to the daimyo, then suddenly realising it was all over.
In a Uesugi 1550 campaign I was well aware of having only the daimyo as a family member. And I paid some more attention to him. However, with a good dose of overestimation I managed to have him killed as well. I sent the daimyo unit to storm a castle on it's own. The enemy had something like 32 yari samurai. I thought the 11 hc would win, but no, not by far.

I think I've lost my protectiveness for family members due to many many campaigns where staying alive wasn't hard at all. Now that I think of it, the 1530 and 1550 campaigns I chose now maybe feature less heirs in total? Not sure, but I'm inclined to think that.

Anyway, this topic might not be too intresting, sorry for that! :P I just felt like sharing my stupidity, and wonder if others have made the same dumb mistakes?

[patdj]

Funny. Up to now I thought you were invincible. Destroyed my picture of the World.

Had similar experiences with the epic top generals of each clan 1 or 2 times. For example loosing Tokugawa Ieyasu in a bridge battle because of thinking the enemy was done and just needed to be chased. It's not lethal, but equally frustrating, cause I do not want to have the Tokugawa shogunate benn set up by a random brther of his.

[ReluctantSamurai]

I tend to be verrrry careful with committing my Daimyo/heirs in battle except at the start of a campaign where there are limited numbers of units on the battlefield..........

This is perhaps an outgrowth of playing lots of 1580 camps where advanced unit-types and muskets abound right from the start......

I try to cultivate heirs by sending them to put down rebellions or to guard a minor border area. Once they reach 3 or 4 stars I then have no reservations about throwing them into the thick of things. I don't allow Ashi, or horsemen of any kind to be an heir unless that's what they start with.............

Now that I think of it, the 1530 and 1550 campaigns I chose now maybe feature less heirs in total?

I've never done a count so I wouldn't know one way or another. I tend to think the 1580 start date offers less heirs and is already past the timeline for several of the 6-star variety.....

[econ21]

I don't recall losing my leaders as a big problem in STW[1], although they are a tempting shock attack unit. However, whenever I return to STW, I find myself plagued by the opposite problem - AI factions disappearing after I kill their royalty. The games then get rather dull, as fighting a mass of ronin is nowhere near as fun as fighting living factions. I guess I should discipline myself to be more chivalrous and let them escape, but knocking out the enemy general is such a boon in a close battle, it is hard to resist.

[1]My generals do drop like flies in my M2TW games, however.

[caravel]

Anyway, this topic might not be too intresting, sorry for that! :P I just felt like sharing my stupidity, and wonder if others have made the same dumb mistakes?

It's an interesting thread.

The only difference between the eras is the start dates, the unit/building placements and the province ownership. STW has set heirs that come of age at set dates so you have to extra careful. It does not generate random ones as with MTW - it's a wholly different heirs system to that game.

The trick is to ensure that when your heirs come of age you have no units being trained whatsoever. Then train a Cavalry Archers unit as your heirs unit. These units are fast enough to stay out of trouble and very useful. Later in the campaign you may want to risk training some heavy cavalry heirs. The worst thing that can happen is if your heir comes of age as something like a unit of Yari Ashigaru, Nodachi, Samurai Archers or Yari Cavalry - as these units are too front line or vulnerable. If it comes down to it, I would go with Naginta or Yari Samurai heir units as a second choice as at least they're quite defensive.

The real problem is actually watching your heirs and making sure that you prepare for their coming of age. This can be difficult and it is very easy to slip up and see your 7 star boy wonder appear at the head of an Ashigaru unit.

If this annoys you enough to be a game breaker then I can only reccomend that you try the Samurai Warlords mod if you have MTW. This mod is essentially Shogun running on the MTW engine. It's arguably a big improvement over Shogun but it can be very challenging. The main thing is that you get the random heirs of MTW and princesses. You also get a lot more factions and general's units that are almost identical to the ones in STW but are equipped with bows to give them greater survivability.

Welcome back econ21.

[Drisos]

STW has set heirs that come of age at set dates so you have to extra careful. It does not generate random ones as with MTW - it's a wholly different heirs system to that game.

So for some families there might be just be less heirs implemented between 1550 and 1560, for instance? :)

I did use the 'train nothing but unit x you want your heir to be' trick before. However, because I never really experienced trouble keeping my family alive in the past, I didn't even bother looking at how many heirs I had etc. I just enjoyed sending my daimyo into big risk, and I used my heirs as if they were random generals. It battle situation needed them to go beserk, I'd tell them to! :P

Btw, I do have MTW:VI. And I do plan on installing Samurai Warlords. Thing is, I want Multiplayer to work as well. Logging in to servers has been impossible for me since I got on a new computer two years ago. I'm currently trying to set up a Virtual PC running Win98SE to give Samurai Warlords another try. Stay tuned, I'll get it done some day! ;)

[caravel]

So for some families there might be just be less heirs implemented between 1550 and 1560, for instance? :)

Yes, that probably makes sense.

I did use the 'train nothing but unit x you want your heir to be' trick before. However, because I never really experienced trouble keeping my family alive in the past, I didn't even bother looking at how many heirs I had etc. I just enjoyed sending my daimyo into big risk, and I used my heirs as if they were random generals. It battle situation needed them to go beserk, I'd tell them to! :P

It's a difficult policy to stick to. I've never managed to stick to it myself.

Btw, I do have MTW:VI. And I do plan on installing Samurai Warlords. Thing is, I want Multiplayer to work as well. Logging in to servers has been impossible for me since I got on a new computer two years ago. I'm currently trying to set up a Virtual PC running Win98SE to give Samurai Warlords another try. Stay tuned, I'll get it done some day! ;)

I'm not sure MTW has MP problems under XP/2K?

[Drisos]

Unfortunately it seems to! Just like the well-known S:TW problem, I can 'see' the server, but I can't login. Since it was the same problem as in S:TW, and in S:TW I have very strong reason to believe it has something to do with having XP instead of 98, I think it's a good idea to try it on a virtual 98 pc. :)

[caravel]

Well the Samurai Warlords modders/players do play online tournaments AFAIK and I'm sure they're not all still running Windows 98SE. It might be an idea to get up and running and then ask the question over there. Note: I'm not an MP player so I haven't a clue about this.

[Martok]

The trick is to ensure that when your heirs come of age you have no units being trained whatsoever. Then train a Cavalry Archers unit as your heirs unit. These units are fast enough to stay out of trouble and very useful. Later in the campaign you may want to risk training some heavy cavalry heirs. The worst thing that can happen is if your heir comes of age as something like a unit of Yari Ashigaru, Nodachi, Samurai Archers or Yari Cavalry - as these units are too front line or vulnerable. If it comes down to it, I would go with Naginta or Yari Samurai heir units as a second choice as at least they're quite defensive.

This is a bit off-topic, but I'm curious: Has anyone ever trained no units at all when an heir comes of age? And if so, what happens? Does the heir appear anyway, or does he not show up on the map at all until you've trained another unit?

Having never tried it myself (I do my best to have a company of HC/CA/YS ready as my heir's personal unit), I've no idea how this works.

[Togakure]

In my experience, once an heir comes of age, the next unit trained is that heir. You can hold off if you want, if say, you were about to finish a nice dojo or improvement like an armory or swordsmith. You can tell when the heir has matured by looking on the heirs tab--it will say "Unassigned." This indicates that the next unit trained will be the heir. The way it actually works, if multiple provinces are training units, the city furthest left on the map that trains a unit will produce the heir. I think it has to do with the order in which the game processes unit production. Therefore, rather than cease production for all provinces, I just cease production of all units further left on the map than the province I want the heir to be trained in.

As far as generals go, I don't usually use Cavalry Archers (CA) as generals. It's true that they are very mobile and can usually avoid trouble, but I prefer my generals to have speed and high morale (iirc, CA have a morale of 4). In Single Player (SP) this is not so crucial; honored-up CA work fine, but in Multi-Player (MP) morale is really important and CA above Honor 0 aren't a very good bang for your koku. I think my tendencies in MP carry over into SP now as that's all I play.

That being said, Warrior Monks and No Dachi have high morale (8), but crappy defense, so I rarely make them generals. My favorite is the Naginata Cavalry (morale 8) in mid- to late-game. Purists who don't like using this unit can opt for Heavy Cavalry (morale 6 and good defense) instead.

Heh, contrary to what I just said, I tend to use Yari Samurai (YS) as generals early on. Why? Their morale isn't great unless honored-up (fortunately heir units often are), but they get that wonderful spear bonus against cavalry, and have good armor versus ranged attacks. Speedy Yari Cavalry can make short work of an archer, nod, or CA general, and can even route monks if they get in a good flank attack, particularly if the monk unit is already engaged. But YS tend to shred any cavalry foolish enough to engage them in melee. Even flank attacks against them with cavalry is a crap-toss unless the YS is already engaged with another unit and/or significantly damaged. I just make sure to keep archers between my YS gen and enemy archers, and try not to let monks or nods get close. This isn't so hard to do against the AI. Yeah, they are slow, but I generally maneuver as an army and do my best to keep my gen well-protected (stop chuckling, Sasaki ...).

There was a time in the late 1.02 MP days when one guy started using Honor 7 Yari Samurais (and a bunch of cheap other units to compensate for the expense). Man ... they were a b-word. He pissed everyone off for a couple of weeks before good counter armies (a taste of his own medicine, combined with a lot of CAs, better used) were invented. Those who'd been around for awhile said it was reminiscent of the old Super-Ashi armies (which led to Ashigaru spearmen being traditionally banned from MP).

[ReluctantSamurai]

As far as generals go, I don't usually use Cavalry Archers (CA) as generals. It's true that they are very mobile and can usually avoid trouble, but I prefer my generals to have speed and high morale

Ditto, for me. In addition, my cav are usually out on some flanking mission or even behind enemy units, and therefore not always in direct contact with my main force. If I slip up and they get caught/routed/destroyed, well.....there's usually more where they came from. But if they're an heir

I have no qualms about having SA heirs. My archers are usually tucked safely behind other units. What to do with them if they run out of arrows can be problematical, however...................

I've even experimented with musketeers as heirs. Never considered it before I got me a 4-star teppo general in a campaign once........added a bunch of BFN and a couple of Kensei and he became my 'river-buster'. Had a lot of fun with that one.....he even made 5-star..