Mafia Mongolica [Concluded]

[Beskar]

Naughty Reenk Roink:

I kinda like to push Beskar's buttons

From the FAQ:

Sportsmanship expresses an aspiration or ethos that the activity will be enjoyed for its own sake, with proper consideration for fairness, ethics, respect, and a sense of fellowship with one's competitors.

[Askthepizzaguy]

I like to push your buttons too, Beskar.

[A Very Super Market]

I don't like rules. I'm killing Beskar tonight. I'm killing ALL of you! You never listen.

Harumph,

[TinCow]

Nice to see some progress. Well done ATPG.

[Death is yonder]

Vote:Ichigo

I suppose?

1. There's plenty of time left on the clock. Revealing this early just to lynch Ichigo of all people if I were a mafia makes no sense. The same strategy could be done next round. I wasn't really in danger of being lynched.
2. That being said, I do things that make no sense, out of sheer balls. That is why I am aware I have no credibility as a detective revealing, and am prepared to die next round. That should be good enough for you.
3. I am working with Beskar, but I've never made a secret about it. Given how much of a dead man walking I am, how long do you think he's going to live, if he were my mafia partner? Makes no sense.

I realize I do things which seem to make no sense, as a strategy, at times. But there's no way I'd abort our entire chance of winning the game by voluntarily revealing to the town we were both working together, as early as round 2, and then follow it up with a fake detective claim on round 5, with so many players left. It's a moron strategy. If I am as clever as you suggest, give me more credit.

The line is drawn finely between WIFOM and common sense, and I think that its just too implausible for the argument against ATPG.

He claimed that his ability was ambiguous though, but the results of the lynch should shed some light.

Edit:

Boom two deaths. Interesting. Sorry TC. I suspect several people. After I find out how everyone else feels I shall share my thoughts and see if that helps anyone.

There has been quite a lot of "how everyone else feels" already, time to share your thoughts, no?

[TinCow]

If ATPG is mafia, he will have to drop his kills to 1 until the end of the game to prevent from being instantly identified as a liar. Since there are still a lot of players left, that gives us a relatively long time to reach a verdict on ATPG. Don't judge him based on his survival or lack thereof next turn. Do so if he's still alive 3-4 turns from now. A mafioso can risk leaving a detective alive for a short period of time, but the longer the game goes on the greater the risk the detective will get a second positive result. In the current situation, the remaining mafioso will likely be IDed by ATPG before it becomes necessary for the town to start seriously considering him as a lynch contendor. So, leave ATPG alone and do what he says for the time being. We'll re-open the case on him if we ever see 2 kills after tonight or if he's still alive very, very late in the game.

[White_eyes:D]

If ATPG is mafia, he will have to drop his kills to 1 until the end of the game to prevent from being instantly identified as a liar. Since there are still a lot of players left, that gives us a relatively long time to reach a verdict on ATPG. Don't judge him based on his survival or lack thereof next turn. Do so if he's still alive 3-4 turns from now. A mafioso can risk leaving a detective alive for a short period of time, but the longer the game goes on the greater the risk the detective will get a second positive result. In the current situation, the remaining mafioso will likely be IDed by ATPG before it becomes necessary for the town to start seriously considering him as a lynch contendor. So, leave ATPG alone and do what he says for the time being. We'll re-open the case on him if we ever see 2 kills after tonight or if he's still alive very, very late in the game.

I totally agree with TinCow....I was just kicking up a fuss now so this way....you all are not going to say "Why didn't he warn us about ATPG when he had the chance?" later, I gave you guys the warning and that's it...

I can't agree or disagree with the Ichigo lynch....but if ATPG were Mafia he would have saw it too...

[ULC]

Bah, killed? And I wanted to reveal eventually

[Askthepizzaguy]

At the risk of alienating my newfound friends in the townie world, are we certain that Shinseikhaan would drop the kills from 2 to 1? Hasn't there been games in the past, of Khaan's, where a sole mafia picked up the slack of his fallen partner and did 2 at once? Khaan is very careful not to leave obvious clues in his writeups, and I think he even goes as far as to not reveal the alignment of the fallen.

I appreciate the vote of confidence; I am just hoping it is still there tomorrow, that's all.

[Sigurd]

I just can't for the life of me understand why the Mafiosi have not off'ed ATPG and Beskar yet... Obviously they thought Reenk and YLC was the larger threat.

[Askthepizzaguy]

They were interfering with my master plan.

Oh wait, this isn't private message.

[ULC]

I just can't for the life of me understand why the Mafiosi have not off'ed ATPG and Beskar yet... Obviously they thought Reenk and YLC was the larger threat.

I kinda was, but I'm not allowed to reveal :\

[Reenk Roink]

Yeah, I played my own games, the PM I sent to White_eyes:D is 100% legit. I obviously can't do much anymore, so I'll leave you with these suggestions.

Kill Ichigo this round for obvious reasons.

Kill Atpg the next round. Sorry Atpg, I still believe you more than I don't, but the fact that I was killed this round (and YLC who always was nice enough to sell me my vote) puts a bit more suspicion on you.

Kill White_eyes:D the next round. There's the possibility that he offed me, knowing that he couldn't off Atpg without me squealing and now he's going to try to make Atpg look guilty.

Both Atpg and White_eyes:D should think this is reasonable if they are protown/town.

[Askthepizzaguy]

I won't argue about being lynched next round, though I will advise against it for the most obvious of reasons. As for White_Eyes, he's packing some big ones if he's mafia. It's almost like he's begging to be investigated or lynched.

[Chaotix]

Yeah, I played my own games, the PM I sent to White_eyes:D is 100% legit. I obviously can't do much anymore, so I'll leave you with these suggestions.

Kill Ichigo this round for obvious reasons.

Kill Atpg the next round. Sorry Atpg, I still believe you more than I don't, but the fact that I was killed this round (and YLC who always was nice enough to sell me my vote) puts a bit more suspicion on you.

Kill White_eyes:D the next round. There's the possibility that he offed me, knowing that he couldn't off Atpg without me squealing and now he's going to try to make Atpg look guilty.

Both Atpg and White_eyes:D should think this is reasonable if they are protown/town.

The only qualm I would have with this is that ATPG is, most likely, our only investigator (especially if YLC was the other one, which he hinted at). I think we should give him at least a round or two to investigate for us, assuming the mafia doesn't off him.

As for white_eyes, his moves this round would completely make sense as a mafioso: he notices the detective reveal by ATPG; uses the wording in Reenk's pms to try and discredit him; this at the same time covers his back, by making him look like a trusted ally of Reenk, while pressing focus onto someone else. He needs to be lynched.

[Reenk Roink]

The only qualm I would have with this is that ATPG is, most likely, our only investigator (especially if YLC was the other one, which he hinted at). I think we should give him at least a round or two to investigate for us, assuming the mafia doesn't off him.

Fair enough. However, do not fall into the trap that TinCow suggests here:

So, leave ATPG alone and do what he says for the time being. We'll re-open the case on him if we ever see 2 kills after tonight or if he's still alive very, very late in the game.

...lest you forget the lessons of The Prometheus...

Atpg's detective reveal is even vaguer than mine, and he hasn't even posted a role PM. We know very little about his exact abilities, and that is suspicious in and of itself. You saw what I did, I said that the game mechanics themselves were changed to explain my situation ("Oh, I can't investigate anymore" ). Atpg doesn't even have to contradict something about his role, as he has hidden it from us.

As for white_eyes, his moves this round would completely make sense as a mafioso: he notices the detective reveal by ATPG; uses the wording in Reenk's pms to try and discredit him; this at the same time covers his back, by making him look like a trusted ally of Reenk, while pressing focus onto someone else. He needs to be lynched.

I agree. But consider this.

If Atpg is telling the truth, than Ichigo is likely (not certainly, maybe he was a different role who visited YLC) a killer and hopefully Mafia. That means there is one less killer and hopefully one remaining Mafia. So if White eyes is Mafia, he very well potentially may be the last one.

On the other hand, if Atpg is lying and not only that, is Mafia, then there are most likely still two Mafia left.

I think for this pragmatic reason, Atpg should be lynched before White eyes. It should be done soon too, DO NOT leave this confusing-*** situation for the last rounds.

edit: Again, I believe Atpg, even cautiously. However, we have a chance to be pretty certain about this, let's take it. Sorry for going behind your back like that Atpg, but you have to admit, it was a good way of covering bases.

[TinCow]

Queueing up lynchings is bad idea. Deal with this round now and leave the decisions on next round until then. Stacking them three deep not only limits discussion, it's pretty much guaranteed to never work out.

[Beskar]

What is strange that White_Eyes:D is convinced there will be two kills again if Ichigo the Mafia is killed. Being bluntly honest, I think he knows far more about the Mafia than what it would be otherwise be known.

FOS: White_Eyes:D

[Reenk Roink]

Queueing up lynchings is bad idea. Deal with this round now and leave the decisions on next round until then. Stacking them three deep not only limits discussion, it's pretty much guaranteed to never work out.

What?

I'm pretty sure the major thing that will be discussed in the next round is what happens to Atpg and maybe White_eyes:D.

And if drawing more immediacy on Atpg and White eyes and suggesting that they be the next lynches takes away from discussing someone much less suspicious like say Sigurd, than it's a darn good side effect.

[TinCow]

What?

I'm pretty sure the major thing that will be discussed in the next round is what happens to Atpg and maybe White_eyes:D.

And if drawing more immediacy on Atpg and White eyes and suggesting that they be the next lynches takes away from discussing say Sigurd, than it's a darn good side effect.

Oh, please. Unless ATPG is killed or 2 kills show up you can't determine anything based on what happens. It's Mafia 101 to leave a detective alive for a short period of time to make the town lynch him. I would agree with lynching ATPG next if we were near the end-game, but we're not close to that if there's only 1 kill per night. Under the circumstances, I see no pressing need to lynch ATPG unless we get evidence to show he's a mafioso. If he is lying, he'll be lynched eventually. It's kind of hard to forget about someone who has publicly claimed to be a detective.

I see no possible benefit to killing ATPG next round. If he is mafioso, he'll have to limit his kills to pretend he's the detective. That alone works well for the town and gives us enough time to judge him. If he's the detective, lynching him is clearly a bad idea.

[Csargo]

It's ATPG and Beskar.

[Reenk Roink]

Oh, please. Unless ATPG is killed or 2 kills show up you can't determine anything based on what happens. It's Mafia 101 to leave a detective alive for a short period of time to make the town lynch him. I would agree with lynching ATPG next if we were near the end-game, but we're not close to that if there's only 1 kill per night. Under the circumstances, I see no pressing need to lynch ATPG unless we get evidence to show he's a mafioso. If he is lying, he'll be lynched eventually. It's kind of hard to forget about someone who has publicly claimed to be a detective.

I see no possible benefit to killing ATPG next round. If he is mafioso, he'll have to limit his kills to pretend he's the detective. That alone works well for the town and gives us enough time to judge him. If he's the detective, lynching him is clearly a bad idea.

Ah I see, you can stay in Mafia 101 if you wish. I hope the rest of the town is beyond that...

[Askthepizzaguy]

Gentlemen... you're both dead and innocent. Please be constructive.

[TinCow]

Ah I see, you can stay in Mafia 101 if you wish. I hope the rest of the town is beyond that...

Please explain how leaving ATPG alive for a round or two is bad. I explained why I think it cannot hurt us. Present an argument about why this is a bad strategy. For some reason, rolleyes isn't too convincing.

[TinCow]

Gentlemen... you're both dead and innocent. Please be constructive.

Ah, sorry... didn't realize that arguing against the town lynching you was not constructive. I shall therefore refrain from defending you further. Good luck with that.

[Askthepizzaguy]

Ah, sorry... didn't realize that arguing against the town lynching you was not constructive. I shall therefore refrain from defending you further. Good luck with that.

I was referring to Reenk's comment (post 592) which I didn't feel was constructive.

I phrased it incorrectly.

[Reenk Roink]

Atpg, please post your role PM and all your investigations. There really isn't a reason not too, especially the latter. I'm flabbergasted why a detective who honestly was one would not post everything when he revealed himself. Unless you know you aren't going to die, that is...

Please explain how leaving ATPG alive for a round or two is bad

Changing your position?

Don't judge him based on his survival or lack thereof next turn. Do so if he's still alive 3-4 turns from now.

So, leave ATPG alone and do what he says for the time being. We'll re-open the case on him if we ever see 2 kills after tonight or if he's still alive very, very late in the game.

I would agree with lynching ATPG next if we were near the end-game

Bringing that up, you are better off here though, leaving him alive for a round or two is a much more reasonable idea than leaving him alive till endgame or even 3-4 rounds. It might even be more reasonable than my suggestion of killing him the next round.

The longer we leave him alive, the more people he may kill that would vote against him. Also, if there are two Mafia remaining, then it is much easier for them to go on killing one a day and trying to win by attrition.

For some reason, rolleyes isn't too convincing.

The rolleyes smiley is to show my reaction and your idea, it isn't meant to convince you, my previous posts on the matter were designed to be persuasive though they obviously failed to convince you.

I was referring to Reenk's comment (post 592) which I didn't feel was constructive.

And I disagree, if TinCow is really adamant in expecting such a simplistic string of events to occur despite the fact that it has been clearly exploited by Mafia before, than I feel I should warn the town by showing my absolute disgust of the idea.

[Askthepizzaguy]

In the rules, it states: NO QUOTING HOST PM's.

And, I do NOT feel it prudent to reveal all the other investigatees yet. You won't convince me of that.

[White_eyes:D]

Reenk was able to bull town for over 5 rounds was it?? (The Prometheus was a townie disaster for that reason...) guess who his Mafia buddy's were?? (ATPG and Khaan)

I think what Reenk is saying is that he well keep his Info limited to keep town guessing and lynching themselves...

No 100% guarantee? he was even PMing Reenk behind everyone's back...The only time he has ever done that....is when he has been Mafia...

Edit:Well, I have no problem being lynched to be honest You disappoint me Reenk....but you were just covering all your bases

[Reenk Roink]

In the rules, it states: NO QUOTING HOST PM's.

And, I do NOT feel it prudent to reveal all the other investigatees yet. You won't convince me of that.

For the first part, it's very easy, actually tell us your role name and your abilities without quoting?

For the second part very suspicious that a detective doesn't do that and makes a dogmatic statement that he won't be convinced otherwise.

Why not? After all, if you really are detective, than your life is very well in danger. You know you cant reveal once dead. You must treally be betting for the Mafia to leave you alone? Or maybe you are Mafia?

But maybe you're just being unhelpful and don't want to give the town of names that may be potentially cleared. Great play?