Mafia Mongolica [Concluded]

[TinCow]

Stinks of a frame-up to me.

[Beskar]

Stinks of a frame-up to me.

Sorry, I have to agree exactly with TinCow.

If I was going to do what you said, wouldn't have just killed you, Reenk Roink? Far easier and less hassle. Also, being really honest, if I was Mafia, I would have killed you last night and wouldn't have cared if it got me lynched.

It's great that straight away, while I otherwise been at work, you jumped straight away accusing me in the first post, in a big write-up, if anything, you had the whole incident planned out, in order to frame me, then while the town goes off and lynch me, you snigger to yourself going "hehe, so easy to fool the town and lynch Beskar".

Looks like you (or a smart Mafia) obviously set this up to get me killed. But not killing you but some one else close to the mark, the Mafia (or you) hope this draws the town into lynching me, opposed to them (or you).

Vote: Reenk Roink (till something better turns up)

[White_eyes:D]

I am tempted to go for Reenk Roink....(I can tell you up to something...)
But it's been a while....and I missed you....

So I Vote:ATPG for killing Beefy the likely Innocent townie

Tally:

1-Askthepizzaguy:(White_eyes:D)
1-Reenk Roink:(Beskar)
1-Beskar:(Reenk Roink)

[GeneralHankerchief]

Stinks of a frame-up to me.

Could be a double-bluff. Intentionally kill me off and then scream "Frame!"

Frankly, that and other reasons since Day One all point to Beskar. He has to go, if nothing else to get the town looking elsewhere finally.

[TinCow]

Could be a double-bluff. Intentionally kill me off and then scream "Frame!"

Frankly, that and other reasons since Day One all point to Beskar. He has to go, if nothing else to get the town looking elsewhere finally.

Yes, it's very possible. In my original post, I actually laid out an argument against Reenk and cast a vote for him, but then thought better of it and erased it. I'm currently thinking we're focused too much on a very small number of people. The Beskar issue does not seem likely to drop anytime soon, so perhaps its best just to lynch him so that the discussion can move on to other directions. I'll see how the day goes before casting my vote.

[Reenk Roink]

Yes, it's very possible. In my original post, I actually laid out an argument against Reenk and cast a vote for him, but then thought better of it and erased it. I'm currently thinking we're focused too much on a very small number of people. The Beskar issue does not seem likely to drop anytime soon, so perhaps its best just to lynch him so that the discussion can move on to other directions. I'll see how the day goes before casting my vote.

Let's see it?

To be honest I'm not sure what to make of you TinCow. Can you explain why we should focus on a broader target group at this point? After all, at this point, there is very little to go on, spreading the vote thin will make it easier for the bad guys as their vote can count more and they can also hide behind various targets. This is not to say that we should focus on Atpg/Beskar exclusively, no no no. I certainly welcome a broadening of the targets, though not for its own sake. If anyone has a theory, please speak up.

So if you had made a case against me, I would like to see it. Put your money where your mouth is and give us more targets. I do hope it will be better than your argument against YLC...

Yeah, I recall using that in a few games...Good times (How did I get away with it back then??) I have a bad feeling about Reenk.....but he could be just trying harder...last game he and Khaan blamed me endless from the grave....

I am "trying harder" in the sense that I'm trying to do the basic analytical style of play. Yes, I know I've heavily criticized it before, but I don't think it is completely devoid of worth, far from it.

[Askthepizzaguy]

Vote: Khazaar

[gibsonsg91921]

Vote: ATPG

He does not bode well.

[Askthepizzaguy]

Vote: ATPG

He does not bode well.

Good sir, I can bode with the best of them. You'd actually be impressed by my technique.

[pevergreen]

Good sir, I can bode with the best of them. You'd actually be impressed by my technique.

Nice.

Vote: Beskar

I side with my brother.

[TinCow]

Let's see it?

To be honest I'm not sure what to make of you TinCow. Can you explain why we should focus on a broader target group at this point? After all, at this point, there is very little to go on, spreading the vote thin will make it easier for the bad guys as their vote can count more and they can also hide behind various targets. This is not to say that we should focus on Atpg/Beskar exclusively, no no no. I certainly welcome a broadening of the targets, though not for its own sake. If anyone has a theory, please speak up.

Are you kidding me? Let me re-quote you to see if I've got this right...

Can you explain why we should focus on a broader target group at this point?... spreading the vote thin will make it easier for the bad guys as their vote can count more and they can also hide behind various targets.

Followed by...

I certainly welcome a broadening of the targets, though not for its own sake.

Nicely done. Way to cover both sides of the argument with the thinnest possible plausible explanation to keep it from being totally absurd. You seem to be claiming there's a great deal of evidence against Beskar, and I call foul on that. What did he do, vote in a manner that saved ATPG? I did the same thing, yet you ignored me. Your evidence against Beskar is wafer thin, yet you keep pumping it every round. GH's death does point the finger at him, but that's the ultimate WIFOM and you know it. You're being incredibly focused on Beskar, and that doesn't seem like you at all from my limited experience. I've never seen you go after someone with this level of tenacity, and you are doing so in a situation with evidence that is equivocal at best.

At this point, it is YOU that is acting abnormally.

So if you had made a case against me, I would like to see it. Put your money where your mouth is and give us more targets.

A bit defensive are we? I originally erased my argument against you because I didn't think it was very strong. Your response is making me reconsider that position.

[Askthepizzaguy]

Perhaps he is just attempting a new style.

Can anyone remember that I used to have a slightly different play style? I was slightly more verbose.

[Tratorix]

I still am standing by my Atpg/Beskar theory for now. Of course, I am open to other suggestions as well at this point. I'm kinda getting this second itch that Tratorix might be a guilty one, who probably thinking that Beskar will get the axe soon enough, will try to make me look like a bad guy (as he did last round).

Why good sir, you must be some sort of prophet!

So, let me get this straight. Your list of suspects includes:

1) Beskar.
2) Anyone who defends Beskar.
3) Anyone who says you might not be entirely trustworthy.

All this comes from what is, basically, a gut feeling on your part. Sorry, but you strike me as mafia trying really hard to rationalize your voting. Vote: ReenkRoink

[Reenk Roink]

Are you kidding me? Let me re-quote you to see if I've got this right...

Followed by...

Nicely done. Way to cover both sides of the argument with the thinnest possible plausible explanation to keep it from being totally absurd.

Things aren't as black or white as you make them out to be.

You may wish to try and portray my statements as self contradictory or close to it to avoid actually addressing them but I won't allow it.

Can you explain why we should focus on a broader target group at this point?

So then, I asked you to explain WHY we should focus on a broader group. This should have been interpreted as a request for an explanation for a stance you proposed. Care to indulge me?

spreading the vote thin will make it easier for the bad guys as their vote can count more and they can also hide behind various targets.

This here is me pointing out what I see as a major drawback in doing what you propound.

I certainly welcome a broadening of the targets, though not for its own sake.

Here is me offering my opinion on your proposal. I state that I would welcome it (is this not consistent with my previous requests from others to give alternatives?) but it is qualified with a condition that it is not to be done for it's own sake.

For that major problem that it has, broadening the targets does also allow us to progress in some ways.

I understand this is Mafia, and people aren't exactly going to be crafting charitable construals of other people's post, but let's not get carried away and build strawmen TinCow. At least don't make them so blatant to be easily called out...

You seem to be claiming there's a great deal of evidence against Beskar,

Your most blatantly false assertion.

1
2
3

These posts all point out the tentative nature of my argument. I have made it clear that I am driven more by pragmatic concerns (there is nobody better to vote for) than epistemic concerns. I have never tried to obfuscate the epistemic lacking that my case had.

and I call foul on that. What did he do, vote in a manner that saved ATPG? I did the same thing, yet you ignored me.

Already explained. You did not have previous connection with Beskar? The thing that got to me is that after Beskar

Also, in the second round, you stayed aloof from the whole matter with your vote. Atpg jumped on GH for voting Beskar.

Your evidence against Beskar is wafer thin, yet you keep pumping it every round. GH's death does point the finger at him, but that's the ultimate WIFOM and you know it.

I disagree with the assertion that my evidence is wafer thin. Speaking within the context of Mafia games and Mafia cases, I consider it an average case. It points out linked voting and posting and is slightly reinforced by a kill.

If you still disagree, please bring examples of paradigmatic Mafia cases and point out the ways mine is lacking as compared to them.

I consider WIFOM to be a useless construct. It does not add anything to the discussion, as every action can be reinterpreted through its lens.

You're being incredibly focused on Beskar, and that doesn't seem like you at all from my limited experience. I've never seen you go after someone with this level of tenacity, and you are doing so in a situation with evidence that is equivocal at best.

At this point, it is YOU that is acting abnormally.

Of course I am. So?

Now then, are you so entrenched in the dogmatic assumption of "behavior change = scum" that this statement is supposed to imply that I am scummy?

You do know how much I detest the equivocation of behavioral change to scumminess right? Would you wish for me to argue against it (rather I will repost my many tirades)?

A bit defensive are we? I originally erased my argument against you because I didn't think it was very strong. Your response is making me reconsider that position.

First, how can this be interpreted as defensive whatsoever? Second please do.

[Askthepizzaguy]

unvote, vote: splitpersonality

You seem to be intentionally ducking attention.

[TinCow]

Now then, are you so entrenched in the dogmatic assumption of "behavior change = scum" that this statement is supposed to imply that I am scummy?

You do know how much I detest the equivocation of behavioral change to scumminess right? Would you wish for me to argue against it (rather I will repost my many tirades)?

Having observed a fair number of mafia games, I have concluded that it is the single most reliable method of spotting mafioso. This is based on observations of people who are good at this kind of thing, since I will freely admit that my track record on catching mafioso is pretty poor. Your disdain for attacks based on behavioral changes is irrelevant to me. As far as I am concerned, it's a well-established method of catching scum and has proven itself many times. Argue against it all you want, but feel free to target it at others, for you will not find me receptive.

It is late and I am tired. I will address the other parts of your post if they seem to still be relevant in the morning.

[White_eyes:D]

Could be a double-bluff. Intentionally kill me off and then scream "Frame!"

Yeah, I recall using that in a few games...Good times (How did I get away with it back then??) I have a bad feeling about Reenk.....but he could be just trying harder...last game he and Khaan blamed me endless from the grave....

[Beskar]

The Very Shortened version of post:
While Reenk Roink's vote suggestion this round was far more decent, abeit, very misguided, please vote for reasons similar or superior. I will honesty say now, voting for me "to let the discussion move on" will annoy me, because it is not my fault some one got hooked voting for me, because I called them out on scummy behaviour.