Quote Originally Posted by Rhyfelwyr View Post
There's nothing wrong with saying "should". Adam had free will before the fall and his actions are representative of the nature of all humanity... being created innocent by God and in communion with Him, humanity as a whole should, from the view of a morally-perfect agent, act according to God's perfect ways. Unless ye be a supralapsarian of course, but my branch of Calvinists never went for that.

Anyway, in my main post you didn't have to take it as being deterministic. On the wider scale looking at humanity in general, God could have brought about all those things I stated through a general 'moral appeal' to individuals to act in a certain manner, which would be no more deterministic or infringe any more on their free will than any other factor which influences the decisions we take would. This would be the position of most Christians I would think, Catholics believe in a dual role between God and the individual when it comes to salvation and making moral choices. You are an Arminian extremist!

Oh and... congratulations on getting your BA, I'm pretty sure you were still studying last time I asked you about it... what's your Thesis on?
My Thesis is currently titled, "Humility and Acceptable Heterodoxy in the Middle English Mystics", my Doctoral proposal was accepted, but I'm not getting funding so I will be declining it in a few days.

To the topic at hand:

Previously you said that all Christians glorify God with their lives, and that he selects them for certain purposes. That is deterministic, it's also something I reject. "Moral Appeal" is fine, but your arguements stray far beyond that.

In any case, "Armenianism" is the same as traditional catholic belief (note the small "c"). Armenius is credited with something because Protestants, and particularly those who rejected Calvin, found this embarressing. To whit, the moral persuation of the Holy Spirit is not deterministic, it requires human co-operation.

Calvinism is not co-operative in the same way, it assumes that God selects, for salvation, for specific pruposes, etc. Not only do I think this wrong, I think it is more than a little depressing. In the case of Ice's friend was selected for sudden death without living a full life, having children, grandchildren etc. I see no reason to accept that, especially because it absolves anyone of responsibility for anything. Obviously that's fine in a Calvinistic system, but I like to believe that our lives have more independant meaning.

Not least because it means all our suffering is deliberately ordained by God. Put simply, God killed someone so that Ice would ask these questions.

Nope, that didn't happen.

This wonderful young woman was killed in a tragic accident, hopefully she is in heaven now; or she is awaiting entry to heaven depending on your theology. Trying to find meaning in these things is impossible, that is why we need faith.