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If the Roman army is not tailored to fight a steppe army, it seems almost uniquely unsuited to fighting them - lots of impotent heavy infantry (without spears), precious few missiles and cavalry. This is not a EB example, but I inherited a Julii PBM and over-confidently, blundered into such a fight with results that I reckon are historically accurate:
https://forums.totalwar.org/vb/showp...7&postcount=26
I think to fight a steppe army, the Romans must significiantly increase their missiles, spears and/or cavalry i.e. become more like a late Roman Empire army than the standard Republican one. Slingers would be the first place I would look in EB (although slingers seems ridiculously cost-effective anyway in the mod). I read one account which suggested the legionnaires themselves used slings when fighting the Parthians.
What army composition would you use, Anti-Social Monkey?
https://forums.totalwar.org/vb/showp...7&postcount=26
I think to fight a steppe army, the Romans must significiantly increase their missiles, spears and/or cavalry i.e. become more like a late Roman Empire army than the standard Republican one. Slingers would be the first place I would look in EB (although slingers seems ridiculously cost-effective anyway in the mod). I read one account which suggested the legionnaires themselves used slings when fighting the Parthians.
What army composition would you use, Anti-Social Monkey?
Originally Posted by antisocialmunky:
I can beat steppe armies with Rome in multi if anyone wants to try. ^.-
I would love to see a replay of that. I can beat steppe armies with Rome in multi if anyone wants to try. ^.-
hmmm...you are using SAKA in the online tournament, I guess you know the weaknesses of a cavalry faction.we call it melee... 
steppe warriors were made for distance fighting...
steppe warriors were made for distance fighting...
Originally Posted by chenkai11:
I would love to see a replay of that. hmmm...you are using SAKA in the online tournament, I guess you know the weaknesses of a cavalry faction.
what are their weaknesses? i dont think there are any glaring weaknesses for a steppe army except for their poor melee. I would love to see a replay of that.
hmmm...you are using SAKA in the online tournament, I guess you know the weaknesses of a cavalry faction.as long as you dont chase them and absorb missle fire you will be fine. the romans even have the tetsudo formation to help them.
Barbarian factions are just about impossible to play against a steppe faction, or any eastern faction at all. Arguably, the Carthies wouldn't do too well either, since their infantry has worse morale than the romans. All other factions eventually get good foot archers, and won't have too much trouble, if played correctly.
Its not really the army, the steppe factions have the advantage there but the Romans really have to just bash their way through with combined arms when they aren't playing highly defensively. Archers + Heavy Infantry + Cavalry.
Originally Posted by fleaza:
what are their weaknesses? i dont think there are any glaring weaknesses for a steppe army except for their poor melee.
as long as you dont chase them and absorb missle fire you will be fine. the romans even have the tetsudo formation to help them.
what are their weaknesses? i dont think there are any glaring weaknesses for a steppe army except for their poor melee.
as long as you dont chase them and absorb missle fire you will be fine. the romans even have the tetsudo formation to help them.
weaknesses = none, for the steppes and nomads
Poor melee? I don't think so. With the cataphracts, armoured horse archers, and bodyguards? No way.
The barbarians would get themselves shot to death, no question.
Romans have good infantry. Eventually, they run out of arrows, which Testudo has decreased in lethality, and must charge. Your infantry stand a good chance at beating them, as to have enough armoured horse-archers mean they have significantly less units than you do.
As the Western hellenics, I'm not really sure how it plays out. You could feasibly just let your phalanxes rough it, and use your own heavy cavalry to flank them after they charge. Or you could use a lot of slingers.
Eastern hellenics have it easy. You have your own horse archers and cataphracts, and good foot archers. It'll be a lot less difficult.
And nomads vs. nomads simply depends on your ability as a commander.
Romans have good infantry. Eventually, they run out of arrows, which Testudo has decreased in lethality, and must charge. Your infantry stand a good chance at beating them, as to have enough armoured horse-archers mean they have significantly less units than you do.
As the Western hellenics, I'm not really sure how it plays out. You could feasibly just let your phalanxes rough it, and use your own heavy cavalry to flank them after they charge. Or you could use a lot of slingers.
Eastern hellenics have it easy. You have your own horse archers and cataphracts, and good foot archers. It'll be a lot less difficult.
And nomads vs. nomads simply depends on your ability as a commander.
Hey! wtf u talking about barbarian factions!
I've played with the Aedui against Saka (mix infantry + HA + Catas) and against HA & heavy cavarly only.
The 1st battle was in EB 1.0 the second in EB .8x.
I won the 1st one by a HAIR pin. It was so close that when I did the battle replay, the replay showed me loosing the battle
The second one I ALMOST won. It was extremely close.
I will say for those who bring up slinger:
YOUR SLINGLER WILL GET SHOT TO S*** by the HA. So if you are post-marian Romani use your armored archers instead.
My suggestion is to hire the heaviest infantry you can get your hands on, and some of the heaviest cavarly u can get your hands on. If you are a gaul that means Helvetti, Solduros, Gaesatae (2), Cornutes (sp, must have), Neitos, and Brenthin (sp). Still deploy lots of slingers to do some damage to his HA and to recieve most of the arrows. Keep mind that when HA's do that circle thing, they will be very hard to hit.
I've played with the Aedui against Saka (mix infantry + HA + Catas) and against HA & heavy cavarly only.
The 1st battle was in EB 1.0 the second in EB .8x.
I won the 1st one by a HAIR pin. It was so close that when I did the battle replay, the replay showed me loosing the battle
The second one I ALMOST won. It was extremely close.
I will say for those who bring up slinger:
YOUR SLINGLER WILL GET SHOT TO S*** by the HA. So if you are post-marian Romani use your armored archers instead.
My suggestion is to hire the heaviest infantry you can get your hands on, and some of the heaviest cavarly u can get your hands on. If you are a gaul that means Helvetti, Solduros, Gaesatae (2), Cornutes (sp, must have), Neitos, and Brenthin (sp). Still deploy lots of slingers to do some damage to his HA and to recieve most of the arrows. Keep mind that when HA's do that circle thing, they will be very hard to hit.
I highly doubt you could afford that army in MP. And have HAs and Catas.
The fact is, barbarian factions don't too well against projectiles. At all. Even the mighty Gaesatae are brought down far easier by arrows than spears. The Getai get a few horse-archer units of their own, and heavy infantry with armour, so I suppose they would fare better than say, the Sweboz.
The fact is, barbarian factions don't too well against projectiles. At all. Even the mighty Gaesatae are brought down far easier by arrows than spears. The Getai get a few horse-archer units of their own, and heavy infantry with armour, so I suppose they would fare better than say, the Sweboz.
Originally Posted by A Very Super Market:
I highly doubt you could afford that army in MP. And have HAs and Catas.
The fact is, barbarian factions don't too well against projectiles. At all. Even the mighty Gaesatae are brought down far easier by arrows than spears. The Getai get a few horse-archer units of their own, and heavy infantry with armour, so I suppose they would fare better than say, the Sweboz.
My army was 1/2 slinger, the other half was composed of the best of Aedui armor. I can't remember if I had 1 or 2 Gaesatae, but I didn't roll with a lot of them.I highly doubt you could afford that army in MP. And have HAs and Catas.
The fact is, barbarian factions don't too well against projectiles. At all. Even the mighty Gaesatae are brought down far easier by arrows than spears. The Getai get a few horse-archer units of their own, and heavy infantry with armour, so I suppose they would fare better than say, the Sweboz.
One thing though... my Solduros fought with Sword ONLY. (me and my friend took out the Spears from them and similar units, like the Arjos). This little thing makes Solduros kick some major ass, as in they can kill Gaesatae
Celts have good enough armor if you bring decent line infantry preferably with spears. Lustotana doesn't give a crap about arrows. The only factions that have missile problems are Germans/Saba since Getai can actually just go steppe themselves.
just bring armored spear units to take the brunt of the arrow fire
Thank for all your opinion
BTW... I Finally know how to defeat the Saka Army with my lovely Marian Legions and Sagitarii. Along with several more cavalry. But Ironically, I win because I want play with time and I was the defensive, with a factor from my enemy's recklesnes, I put all of them hiding inside forest and cutewolf had a long time guessing where i hide, as I put my general in far away reach and when he try to chase , he incidentally run his HA inside my troops hiding place, and then, his men get pilum showered on their face
... well, after he lost most of his horse archers, I put my legions into one single blocks and put archers behind. Although his early horse archers also kill considerable part of my reformata, all that nice numerical advantage worked for me today, and when his bodyguard cavalry that not bodyguard anyway try to slam themself, my Evites Gallorum just pop from their hiding place and poke them from behind when they poke my legionaries...... soon after all routs, he only command one general unit (all his other units are allrready routing, and you could imagine, how 20 men units get chased by 1000++ Legionaries.... well, a victory for roma! 
BTW... I Finally know how to defeat the Saka Army with my lovely Marian Legions and Sagitarii. Along with several more cavalry. But Ironically, I win because I want play with time and I was the defensive, with a factor from my enemy's recklesnes, I put all of them hiding inside forest and cutewolf had a long time guessing where i hide, as I put my general in far away reach and when he try to chase , he incidentally run his HA inside my troops hiding place, and then, his men get pilum showered on their face
... well, after he lost most of his horse archers, I put my legions into one single blocks and put archers behind. Although his early horse archers also kill considerable part of my reformata, all that nice numerical advantage worked for me today, and when his bodyguard cavalry that not bodyguard anyway try to slam themself, my Evites Gallorum just pop from their hiding place and poke them from behind when they poke my legionaries...... soon after all routs, he only command one general unit (all his other units are allrready routing, and you could imagine, how 20 men units get chased by 1000++ Legionaries.... well, a victory for roma! I can see a little careless and frustration on cutewolf's part.
But, hey congratulation on your Roman victory.
But, hey congratulation on your Roman victory.
This is a rather stupid idea what probably won't work on a human, but you can just spread your troops to a 3 man deep line (or 2 if you're daring enough), slowly advance, and hem the skirmishing horse archers into a corner.
Works excellently against the AI, and one of the main disadvantages of a square field
Works excellently against the AI, and one of the main disadvantages of a square field
Just wait until they run out of ammo in testudo then charge. If that doesn't work, then send more people and repeat.
Originally Posted by Sonic:
Thank for all your opinion
BTW... I Finally know how to defeat the Saka Army with my lovely Marian Legions and Sagitarii. Along with several more cavalry. But Ironically, I win because I want play with time and I was the defensive, with a factor from my enemy's recklesnes, I put all of them hiding inside forest and cutewolf had a long time guessing where i hide, as I put my general in far away reach and when he try to chase , he incidentally run his HA inside my troops hiding place, and then, his men get pilum showered on their face... well, after he lost most of his horse archers, I put my legions into one single blocks and put archers behind. Although his early horse archers also kill considerable part of my reformata, all that nice numerical advantage worked for me today, and when his bodyguard cavalry that not bodyguard anyway try to slam themself, my Evites Gallorum just pop from their hiding place and poke them from behind when they poke my legionaries...... soon after all routs, he only command one general unit (all his other units are allrready routing, and you could imagine, how 20 men units get chased by 1000++ Legionaries.... well, a victory for roma!
Ok, pal... I admit you defeat me this time, ending my streak of 20++ always win when I using Saka and you using Romaioi... other than those fried chickens, you deserve a Baloon tainted with blood this time in the org... Thank for all your opinion
BTW... I Finally know how to defeat the Saka Army with my lovely Marian Legions and Sagitarii. Along with several more cavalry. But Ironically, I win because I want play with time and I was the defensive, with a factor from my enemy's recklesnes, I put all of them hiding inside forest and cutewolf had a long time guessing where i hide, as I put my general in far away reach and when he try to chase , he incidentally run his HA inside my troops hiding place, and then, his men get pilum showered on their face
... well, after he lost most of his horse archers, I put my legions into one single blocks and put archers behind. Although his early horse archers also kill considerable part of my reformata, all that nice numerical advantage worked for me today, and when his bodyguard cavalry that not bodyguard anyway try to slam themself, my Evites Gallorum just pop from their hiding place and poke them from behind when they poke my legionaries...... soon after all routs, he only command one general unit (all his other units are allrready routing, and you could imagine, how 20 men units get chased by 1000++ Legionaries.... well, a victory for roma! 
But I just want to said that your choice of Map (Epeiros) is really bad terrain for cav armies, and I did fall to your trap and get my men slammed with pilum on their face, while your nasty cohors spring from their hiding.
BTW I kill 1300 of your men and u only kill 794 of mine... it was a close victory for you afterall...
Spoiler Alert, click show to read:
Originally Posted by Sonic:
Thank for all your opinion
BTW... I Finally know how to defeat the Saka Army with my lovely Marian Legions and Sagitarii. Along with several more cavalry. But Ironically, I win because I want play with time and I was the defensive, with a factor from my enemy's recklesnes, I put all of them hiding inside forest and cutewolf had a long time guessing where i hide, as I put my general in far away reach and when he try to chase , he incidentally run his HA inside my troops hiding place, and then, his men get pilum showered on their face... well, after he lost most of his horse archers, I put my legions into one single blocks and put archers behind. Although his early horse archers also kill considerable part of my reformata, all that nice numerical advantage worked for me today, and when his bodyguard cavalry that not bodyguard anyway try to slam themself, my Evites Gallorum just pop from their hiding place and poke them from behind when they poke my legionaries...... soon after all routs, he only command one general unit (all his other units are allrready routing, and you could imagine, how 20 men units get chased by 1000++ Legionaries.... well, a victory for roma!
Did you use Testudo?Thank for all your opinion
BTW... I Finally know how to defeat the Saka Army with my lovely Marian Legions and Sagitarii. Along with several more cavalry. But Ironically, I win because I want play with time and I was the defensive, with a factor from my enemy's recklesnes, I put all of them hiding inside forest and cutewolf had a long time guessing where i hide, as I put my general in far away reach and when he try to chase , he incidentally run his HA inside my troops hiding place, and then, his men get pilum showered on their face
... well, after he lost most of his horse archers, I put my legions into one single blocks and put archers behind. Although his early horse archers also kill considerable part of my reformata, all that nice numerical advantage worked for me today, and when his bodyguard cavalry that not bodyguard anyway try to slam themself, my Evites Gallorum just pop from their hiding place and poke them from behind when they poke my legionaries...... soon after all routs, he only command one general unit (all his other units are allrready routing, and you could imagine, how 20 men units get chased by 1000++ Legionaries.... well, a victory for roma! Originally Posted by Mikhail Mengsk:
Did you use Testudo?
I don't think so. Legionaires wouldn't be hidden in the forest and be invisible in radar map if they are in testudo.Did you use Testudo?
Originally Posted by chenkai11:
I don't think so. Legionaires wouldn't be hidden in the forest and be invisible in radar map if they are in testudo.
Actually he defeat me with tactics more suitable for Sweboz or Lusotann..... pretty barbaric and plain brutal... just hide and waaarrrrggghhhhh, and those romaioi barbarians shower pilum on my men's face...I don't think so. Legionaires wouldn't be hidden in the forest and be invisible in radar map if they are in testudo.
Well, my wrong to sent waypoints without scouting first...
Originally Posted by Cute Wolf:
Actually he defeat me with tactics more suitable for Sweboz or Lusotann..... pretty barbaric and plain brutal... just hide and waaarrrrggghhhhh, and those romaioi barbarians shower pilum on my men's face...
Well, my wrong to sent waypoints without scouting first...
Actually he defeat me with tactics more suitable for Sweboz or Lusotann..... pretty barbaric and plain brutal... just hide and waaarrrrggghhhhh, and those romaioi barbarians shower pilum on my men's face...
Well, my wrong to sent waypoints without scouting first...
Yeah...at least it is still not good enough to proof that Roman army can defeat cavalry factions.
Originally Posted by Cute Wolf:
Actually he defeat me with tactics more suitable for Sweboz or Lusotann..... pretty barbaric and plain brutal... just hide and waaarrrrggghhhhh, and those romaioi barbarians shower pilum on my men's face...
Well, my wrong to sent waypoints without scouting first...
Well, you always mostly do the same tactial error in every MP games I play with you, as your initial Zerglings and Hydralisks army always got pwned by my Dark Templars, and your Scrin hordes mostly lost in the region where I build disruption towers. BTW I know that historically, hide and seek is accurate and valid tactics against army that was tactically superrior in open field, maybe If we meet again after holidays, I'll try fight with those Barbarians (oops you also call the Romans barbarians? what about your Steppe army? ).Actually he defeat me with tactics more suitable for Sweboz or Lusotann..... pretty barbaric and plain brutal... just hide and waaarrrrggghhhhh, and those romaioi barbarians shower pilum on my men's face...
Well, my wrong to sent waypoints without scouting first...
Today i faced a full cavalry SAKA army with an Imperial Roman Legion, with 1 first cohort, 5 cohorts, 2 pedites extr, 4 eastern auxilia, 2 eastern auxilia archers, 1 cohors evocata, 1 cohors pretoriana, a general, 1 gallic cav, 1 german cav, 1 extraordinarii cav. 40000 mnais.
Babylonian flat map.
I won, but it was against the AI, so...
Anyway, i saw that it's better NOT to use testudo, because the heavy cavalry charges hit it before they could reform original formation, and hit really bad. Normal formation, use infantry to cover flanks, use the few cavalries to attack isolated units.
Babylonian flat map.
I won, but it was against the AI, so...
Anyway, i saw that it's better NOT to use testudo, because the heavy cavalry charges hit it before they could reform original formation, and hit really bad. Normal formation, use infantry to cover flanks, use the few cavalries to attack isolated units.
Originally Posted by Mikhail Mengsk:
Anyway, i saw that it's better NOT to use testudo, because the heavy cavalry charges hit it before they could reform original formation, and hit really bad. Normal formation, use infantry to cover flanks, use the few cavalries to attack isolated units.
Exactly. Which is why Crassus never used it. Learn from history, and it will even help in EB MP. Also, it tires troops, both in RL and enormously in EB. Anyway, i saw that it's better NOT to use testudo, because the heavy cavalry charges hit it before they could reform original formation, and hit really bad. Normal formation, use infantry to cover flanks, use the few cavalries to attack isolated units.
Accensi are questionable to me, as your human opponent would simply charge them. Numbers would have to be your saviour.
The most important thing you should know is that NEVER stand and take a cavalry charge. Even spearmen, even hoplites, even the hoplite elite/thorkitai can take a heavy cavalry charge standing. This is the most common misconception ever. In RTW, if you let you infantry counter-charge, it will suffer very, every few casualties, if any. Running away from the horsemen and then turning when their charge dissipates is even more effective against the heaviest of the heavy cavalry. This is quite (very!) ahistorical/counter-intuitive, but that is how RTW works, and I consider myself a master of RTW game mechanics.
Honestly, after that defeat, I just admit that the element of surprise ambush did play a really significant role on the battlefield. But running against cav charges is also a good option when fought in the woods. Just curious, why units that was fallen into ambush tend to rout much quicker?
Originally Posted by Cute Wolf:
Just curious, why units that was fallen into ambush tend to rout much quicker?
Hah, have you ever seen the "surprised by the emerging enemy"?? That indicator shaves off a few points of morale. Now take some Gaesatae/other naked warriors/Slavic Spearmen, and add some fire arrows, a few routing enemies, your general close by, or even a rear attack, and you get an insta-rout. Thus, always keep some of your men hidden, even if there is no tactical value in that.Just curious, why units that was fallen into ambush tend to rout much quicker?
Originally Posted by Aemilius Paulus:
Running away from the horsemen and then turning when their charge dissipates is even more effective against the heaviest of the heavy cavalry. This is quite (very!) ahistorical/counter-intuitive, but that is how RTW works, and I consider myself a master of RTW game mechanics.
Would you ban this in an online tournament?Running away from the horsemen and then turning when their charge dissipates is even more effective against the heaviest of the heavy cavalry. This is quite (very!) ahistorical/counter-intuitive, but that is how RTW works, and I consider myself a master of RTW game mechanics.
Originally Posted by Aemilius Paulus:
Hah, have you ever seen the "surprised by the emerging enemy"?? That indicator shaves off a few points of morale. Now take some Gaesatae/other naked warriors/Slavic Spearmen, and add some fire arrows, a few routing enemies, your general close by, or even a rear attack, and you get an insta-rout. Thus, always keep some of your men hidden, even if there is no tactical value in that.
It happened very quickly... and Sonic didn't used frightening troops. Just POOIIINNNNGGG!!!! rain of pilums, and afterall all my initial horde of HA's flee, never to answer my rally.... Hah, have you ever seen the "surprised by the emerging enemy"?? That indicator shaves off a few points of morale. Now take some Gaesatae/other naked warriors/Slavic Spearmen, and add some fire arrows, a few routing enemies, your general close by, or even a rear attack, and you get an insta-rout. Thus, always keep some of your men hidden, even if there is no tactical value in that.
Well, my fault, my fault..... It made me learns that sacrificing one unit to scout was really worth it... 
Originally Posted by Aemilius Paulus:
Exactly. Which is why Crassus never used it. Learn from history, and it will even help in EB MP. Also, it tires troops, both in RL and enormously in EB.
Accensi are questionable to me, as your human opponent would simply charge them. Numbers would have to be your saviour.
The most important thing you should know is that NEVER stand and take a cavalry charge. Even spearmen, even hoplites, even the hoplite elite/thorkitai can take a heavy cavalry charge standing. This is the most common misconception ever. In RTW, if you let you infantry counter-charge, it will suffer very, every few casualties, if any. Running away from the horsemen and then turning when their charge dissipates is even more effective against the heaviest of the heavy cavalry. This is quite (very!) ahistorical/counter-intuitive, but that is how RTW works, and I consider myself a master of RTW game mechanics.
I rather just sit there any take the charge. I'd also rather have a few chevroned up skirmisher units run infront of the cavalry to screw up any formed charge. Its what the Gauls do online and its quite effective,Exactly. Which is why Crassus never used it. Learn from history, and it will even help in EB MP. Also, it tires troops, both in RL and enormously in EB.
Accensi are questionable to me, as your human opponent would simply charge them. Numbers would have to be your saviour.
The most important thing you should know is that NEVER stand and take a cavalry charge. Even spearmen, even hoplites, even the hoplite elite/thorkitai can take a heavy cavalry charge standing. This is the most common misconception ever. In RTW, if you let you infantry counter-charge, it will suffer very, every few casualties, if any. Running away from the horsemen and then turning when their charge dissipates is even more effective against the heaviest of the heavy cavalry. This is quite (very!) ahistorical/counter-intuitive, but that is how RTW works, and I consider myself a master of RTW game mechanics.
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