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Thread: Bah!!!!
Originally Posted by Megas Methuselah:
It's still difficult guiding your troops in a dense forest, though.
As it is in RL, I just did for a week.It's still difficult guiding your troops in a dense forest, though.
Originally Posted by Macilrille:
As it is in RL, I just did for a week.
You did what?? As it is in RL, I just did for a week.
Fought in forest battles, look above. Moesgaard 2009 was great, 400 warriors :-)
...is it on YouTube yet ? 
One thing about ancient warfare I dont get. Personally if it was me and I was a Roman commander, Id burn the forest to the ground, that would flush the barbarian's out. It would also turn the land into flat farmland, and wouldnt have to worry about getting ambushed in the Tuetoburg forest either.....
Most of "transalpine" Europe back then was quite heavily forested, so odds are you'd ended up scorching yourself in the process. Also only dry forests burn worth anything; not a terribly common condition in the immediate vicinity of the North Atlantic coast.
As for farmland, ehhhhh... let's just say that if the local soil was worthwhile for cultivation with period agricultural tools, someone would already be ploughing it.
As for farmland, ehhhhh... let's just say that if the local soil was worthwhile for cultivation with period agricultural tools, someone would already be ploughing it.
Originally Posted by tls5669:
One thing about ancient warfare I dont get. Personally if it was me and I was a Roman commander, Id burn the forest to the ground, that would flush the barbarian's out. It would also turn the land into flat farmland, and wouldnt have to worry about getting ambushed in the Tuetoburg forest either.....
You ever spent much time in Western- Central European forests? It is ... moist... not like a jungle, but wet enough that it would take quite a bit of napalm/Greek fire to make a mere patch burn enough that the boughs would disappear. The most recent engagements in such is I think the Ardennes and Hürtgen Forest battles of WWII- or even the Soviets entering Finnish forests (though these are more the northern type of forests), the commanders then relearned the experience that the Romans made; war is difficult in forests. One thing about ancient warfare I dont get. Personally if it was me and I was a Roman commander, Id burn the forest to the ground, that would flush the barbarian's out. It would also turn the land into flat farmland, and wouldnt have to worry about getting ambushed in the Tuetoburg forest either.....
I have experienced the same on Danish maneuvres and while doing the forest fights at Moesgaard. even 60+ m away it gets difficult to see the subunits. Without radios and reliable maps you really need experienced subunit commanders. NCOs and company commanders in modern warfare, Centurions and Thegns(?) in Roman and Viking.
Watchman, I dunno, there are pics on Facebook, you can try a search on Youtube, I am still recovering, so I have not yet ;-) and many has gone on to Wolin.
Edited to add that northern Germany, Friesland and Denmark was in fact very open and heavily tilled with small villages dotting the countryside every 1½- 3 Km. Each of these had a zone of tilled land around it, then "overdrev" (grazing forest and meadows often the moist areas between the hills where the villages were situated), and in the first half of the EB timeframe (roughly) a few untilled forests in between some of them- mostly on Sjælland. Around BC- AD, Denmark was fully exploited this way.
Unfortunately real guerilla warfare is impossible to represent in the TW engine. Although I do wonder if some kind of attrition (human player only) could be added in? Anyway, although maybe unrealistic, fighting in forests is the advantage that "barbarian" factions get instead of an accurate modelling of their guerilla abilities. So if you took the forests out it would unbalance the game.
Originally Posted by Watchman:
Most of "transalpine" Europe back then was quite heavily forested, so odds are you'd ended up scorching yourself in the process. Also only dry forests burn worth anything; not a terribly common condition in the immediate vicinity of the North Atlantic coast.
As for farmland, ehhhhh... let's just say that if the local soil was worthwhile for cultivation with period agricultural tools, someone would already be ploughing it.
I'll have to pull out Warfare in the classical era to double check..but wasn't an entire legion wiped out in Gaul by the celts felling trees then destroying the legion piecemeal?Most of "transalpine" Europe back then was quite heavily forested, so odds are you'd ended up scorching yourself in the process. Also only dry forests burn worth anything; not a terribly common condition in the immediate vicinity of the North Atlantic coast.
As for farmland, ehhhhh... let's just say that if the local soil was worthwhile for cultivation with period agricultural tools, someone would already be ploughing it.
I do not think so, but a coalition of German- Gallic tribes did rise up at one point from out of nowhere and destroyed most of one in its winter quarters AFAICR.
Originally Posted by Macilrille:
I do not think so, but a coalition of German- Gallic tribes did rise up at one point from out of nowhere and destroyed most of one in its winter quarters AFAICR.
Like i said i have to find the book but i could swear that it said that the Gauls destroyed a legion,or its equivelant,pre-(or slightly post) Punic wars marching along a single path through a forest by felling trees on them.It created confusion and cut off units thereby allowing them to destroy each part off the column in detail.I do not think so, but a coalition of German- Gallic tribes did rise up at one point from out of nowhere and destroyed most of one in its winter quarters AFAICR.
Though maybe i'm remembering the chapter wrong.
I severely doubt it, I would have to see a primary source.
If nothiong else, consider that a tree is rarely more than 20 M tall, so these many Gauls would have to be within 20 M of the road undetected- in pacified territory (for Romans did not march Single collumn in unpacified territory), and over a road stretch of 0.7- 2.8 Km (a single file Legion would stretch 2.8 Km minimum, 4-column would stretch 0.7 minimum + bagage train).
I may be wrong, but I severely doubt it and would have to see a primary source. And I may doubt even that. Some of our sources tend to pass on what we today would call "urban legends".
If nothiong else, consider that a tree is rarely more than 20 M tall, so these many Gauls would have to be within 20 M of the road undetected- in pacified territory (for Romans did not march Single collumn in unpacified territory), and over a road stretch of 0.7- 2.8 Km (a single file Legion would stretch 2.8 Km minimum, 4-column would stretch 0.7 minimum + bagage train).
I may be wrong, but I severely doubt it and would have to see a primary source. And I may doubt even that. Some of our sources tend to pass on what we today would call "urban legends".
I didn't say i believed it just that the book said it happened and also gave the name of the legion commander.
I had to go down into the coal cellar to look for the book...do you have any what is in the coal cellar!?
Anyway i found four books,but not the one i want,The Roman Imperial Army of the 1st and 2nd centuries A.D. by Graham Webster,Roman Warfare by Adrian Goldsworth,Mercenaries of the Ancient World by Serge Yalichev,The Making of the Roman army from republic to empire by Lawrence Kepple.
I know i'm not making up what i read..but the coal cellar is dark and scary and i think something tried to bite me.I'll look again tommorow.
I had to go down into the coal cellar to look for the book...do you have any what is in the coal cellar!?
Anyway i found four books,but not the one i want,The Roman Imperial Army of the 1st and 2nd centuries A.D. by Graham Webster,Roman Warfare by Adrian Goldsworth,Mercenaries of the Ancient World by Serge Yalichev,The Making of the Roman army from republic to empire by Lawrence Kepple.
I know i'm not making up what i read..but the coal cellar is dark and scary and i think something tried to bite me.I'll look again tommorow.
are you talking about the 5th or 7th of cesar that got trapped in belgium and during the retreat got caught in a canyon type of terrain and got butchered '' on the same year that quintos cicero got besieged in is winter quarters and hold on for a month until help arrived to free them ?
i think the 5th was lead by cicero and survived and the 7th was the one destroyed but my memory is weak
but that wasn´t a legion it was just an army of 4800 troops plus 1200 bagage auxilian/suport personal
i think the 5th was lead by cicero and survived and the 7th was the one destroyed but my memory is weak
but that wasn´t a legion it was just an army of 4800 troops plus 1200 bagage auxilian/suport personalI've found turning off the restricted camera before and zooming right down for most of the battle to work ok, unless they're the really think forests. Its intense but if you just double click all ur units and press a directional keypad button the camera snaps to them straight away.
Originally Posted by moonburn:
are you talking about the 5th or 7th of cesar that got trapped in belgium and during the retreat got caught in a canyon type of terrain and got butchered '' on the same year that quintos cicero got besieged in is winter quarters and hold on for a month until help arrived to free them ?
i think the 5th was lead by cicero and survived and the 7th was the one destroyed but my memory is weak but that wasn´t a legion it was just an army of 4800 troops plus 1200 bagage auxilian/suport personal
Maybe.are you talking about the 5th or 7th of cesar that got trapped in belgium and during the retreat got caught in a canyon type of terrain and got butchered '' on the same year that quintos cicero got besieged in is winter quarters and hold on for a month until help arrived to free them ?
i think the 5th was lead by cicero and survived and the 7th was the one destroyed but my memory is weak
but that wasn´t a legion it was just an army of 4800 troops plus 1200 bagage auxilian/suport personalI don't know i'd have to find the book,which is proving frustratingly elusive,it gives a date and a commanders name.
just saw someone posting it last night in eb2 forum
but what i know ir the romanticized version made by an australian writter who wrote the "the 1st man of rome" and in the 3rd book you get the story of ceasar during the gaulish wars based on his works on the wars on gaul
but what i know ir the romanticized version made by an australian writter who wrote the "the 1st man of rome" and in the 3rd book you get the story of ceasar during the gaulish wars based on his works on the wars on gaul
sorry- wrong posting
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