How much impact does a generals death have on army morale?

[John the Mad]

I'm asking this because i just had a battle,though i don't know if i should dignify it as such,and it turned into a massacre shortly after the enemy generals death.I have never had such a one-sided fight in all the TW games i've played.

I had a roman army of about 3100 men with the Scipio who starts the game outside of Arpi commanding against a Carthaginian army of about 2700 men led by Hamilicar.It was a field battle in Sicily.

The AI started off by trying to flank me on both sides.On the right with Cav and elephants and on the left with light infantry and elephants.I sent two units of equites to spoil the right flanking manuever,while moving two hastati to secure the rear of that flank.The cavalry fight was about even and my horse took the worst of it from the elephants but it allowed me to set up a better defense before i withdrew the horsemen back behind the line and the AI became inactive for the moment on this flank.

On the left just moving two units of Auxilia(one Samnite spear and one hoplite recruited in Taras) to secure the rear of that flank stopped that movement.At this point the AI began reinforcing its flanking movement with a couple of spear units each.

In the center my Leves and slingers had been harrasing the main body as it moved foward and after having expended their ammo i left them in place to soak up the missle fire instead of my line units.

Once the spear were in place on the wings the AI began an assault on both,and shortly after my center,the fight was pretty even on the flanks.In the center though i watched in horror as Hamilicars bodyguard(over a hundred strong)crashed into a unit of Roarii.The unit literally bent into almost a U on the initial impact.A few seconds later i saw a cut scene of the Roariis centurian cutting down Hamilicar and within a minute after that the flanking units began to rout.In the center most of the units had only been engaged during that time and most of the AI units were at full strength,Poeni and Libyan spear,when suddenly a unit of theirs here and there started to rout.I ordered a general charge across the center and the whole Carthagian army decide to call it a day.

The final toll was 150 roman losses and 2500 Carthaginian.About 45 equites 70 Roarii and the rest being distrubited throught the army

I'm at a loss though to explain it as I've had a few battles where the opposing general died early and their troops kept fighting as hard as before.I've never seen something like this though.The vast majority of the opposing army being intact and then just disentergrating upon their leaders death.The AI had several units that hadn't even been engaged and at first they began marching towards the map edge,and then just broke and ran for their lives.

Does a great general death really have such a severe impact on an otherwise intact army?

[teh1337tim]

let me ask you a question. If alexander died right in front of your face by some big smelly dude,
would you

A. run for your lifes
B. kill the smelly dude
C. Kill smelly dude then run for your life

[A Very Super Market]

Enemy generals have a bad habit of staying out in foreign territory for years, getting the "low supply" traits by the armful. They can also get more traits that disintegrate morale, leading to circumstances like this.

[John the Mad]

I guess it would depend on how far from home i was.

If close to it i would probably run.

If too far away I would probably rather go out fighting instead of being hunted down or starving to death.

[antisocialmunky]

let me ask you a question. If alexander died right in front of your face by some big smelly dude,
would you

A. run for your lifes
B. kill the smelly dude
C. Kill smelly dude then run for your life

There was that one time he jumped into that wall city all by himself and the rest of his men where like "Did he just do that?" and broke several ladders trying to all scale the wall at once to save him butt only to see him get shot by an arrow.

So D. "Damnit Leroy..."

[CBR]

IIRC the impact is something like a -8 in morale for 20-25 seconds and then it goes down to a permanent -2. So yes a general dying at the right time, when lots of his units are fighting, can mean a big chain rout.


CBR

[Teleklos Archelaou]

IIRC the impact is something like a -8 in morale for 20-25 seconds and then it goes down to a permanent -2. So yes a general dying at the right time, when lots of his units are fighting, can mean a big chain rout.


CBR

Interesting CBR. I didn't know that.

[John the Mad]

There was that one time he jumped into that wall city all by himself and the rest of his men where like "Did he just do that?" and broke several ladders trying to all scale the wall at once to save him butt only to see him get shot by an arrow.

So D. "Damnit Leroy..."

That was in modern day India.If i'm not mistaken some believe that led to the abortion of his conquest and ultimatily his death.The reason why he did that was that his men were hesitating and he led by example soon after they overran the walls.

[John the Mad]

IIRC the impact is something like a -8 in morale for 20-25 seconds and then it goes down to a permanent -2. So yes a general dying at the right time, when lots of his units are fighting, can mean a big chain rout.


CBR

That explains it then.

Though i still wonder though why some armies stay and fight it out after their generals death and others call it a day.I think the Carthos could have won the battle as many of their units had two chevrons to one or none for mine.

I must have ordered the counter-charge while they were suffering the morale penalty.Theres no other way to explain intact units running away as they did.

[strategos roma]

I just had the same experience in KH campaign. There were 3000 maks against 2300 of mine, but with only a captain. The fighiting was really fierce on the right flank, while their left was unengaged. Their captain got killed by a Spartan and all the units around him fled. Their left then ran, leaving me with 100 dead aganst 2300 of theirs.

[Chris1959]

History is littered with close fought battles that rapidly become routs upon the death of a leader, so I personally follow Alexander's example and go all out for the enemy general

[miotas]

IIRC the impact is something like a -8 in morale for 20-25 seconds and then it goes down to a permanent -2. So yes a general dying at the right time, when lots of his units are fighting, can mean a big chain rout.


CBR

Wouldn't they also lose any bonuses the general had been providing to nearby units? So would they go from +x morale to -8?

The reaction to a killed leader would surely vary depending on the leader and the people following him. I imagine that there were some situations where a beloved leader was cut down, that it sent his followers into a frenzy, fighting furiously to avenge his death. In most situations though I imagine it would most likey cause a rout.

[CBR]

Wouldn't they also lose any bonuses the general had been providing to nearby units? So would they go from +x morale to -8?

AFAIK a dead general means you lose all the bonuses from command stars and virtues etc.

Can't remember the specifics but I do believe it is something like all units in an army gaining one attack point and one morale point for each command star the general has.

So the loss of a general means units revert back to default stats + whatever upgrades they have themselves. If they were in a melee, and the dead general was a high star one, then the loss in attack points could mean they go from winning to losing, which also means a morale penalty instead of a bonus.

Charging a unit can mean a rather big morale penalty to the receiving unit. It does depend on the discipline stat of a unit though IIRC. So when a general dies it could be seen as a good time for charging in ASAP.


CBR

[/Bean\]

Does experience affect morale? Because I've found that later in the campaigns (when there are more high experience enemy armies around) that they take a lot more to rout than recently recruited units, even if they are elites.

[antisocialmunky]

IIRC the impact is something like a -8 in morale for 20-25 seconds and then it goes down to a permanent -2. So yes a general dying at the right time, when lots of his units are fighting, can mean a big chain rout.


CBR

What's your source? I've been trying to get a list of RTW Morale penalties and bonuses, can't find them in Ludus Magna though.

[CBR]

What's your source? I've been trying to get a list of RTW Morale penalties and bonuses, can't find them in Ludus Magna though.

That was the morale penalties in MTW and IIRC our tests in RTW showed a similar system (don't think we tested it that much though). Both games have similar morale ranges for units so it should not be that different anyway.

CA never released any details of the combat/morale modifiers for RTW so a lot of it is pretty sketchy I'm afraid. But it does seem pretty close to the older engine, just with a few additions.

Edit: when I mentioned discipline in an earlier post it is something to lower the impact of "morale shocks" I think it was called. It is not clear what such morale shocks is. It could mean getting hit by a charge (which I'm quite certain of) and also surprised by a hidden unit, but also the effect from a general dying. So units that are very poor at handling such shocks might even receive a worse penalty than the one described.


CBR

[Kikaz]

History is littered with close fought battles that rapidly become routs upon the death of a leader, so I personally follow Alexander's example and go all out for the enemy general

I find that masses of Leuce Epos (or Curepos) are the perfect assassins in western Europe.

[John the Mad]

Enemy generals have a bad habit of staying out in foreign territory for years, getting the "low supply" traits by the armful. They can also get more traits that disintegrate morale, leading to circumstances like this.

A bad cheat i found out was to send your army out ahead of the general in enemy territory then move him into it when only needed.So say if you are sieging a town that takes 11 turns to fall,leave a genarless army to siege it,then on the ninth turn move a general into it.

I hate doing this but the game seems to go only by seasons besieging and disregards wether the army has devestated the tile underneath...so you get starving troops who have been looting the countryside.

Another bad hiccup seems to be Generals out of supply a turn or two after taking a city.

[A Very Super Market]

Umm. The game does recognize devastation as rampant foraging. Clearly, the seige is just too long.

[John the Mad]

Umm. The game does recognize devastation as rampant foraging. Clearly, the seige is just too long.

Sometimes it recoginizes that your army is foraging by devestating a tile...sometimes it doesn't.

I've had sieges against Bononia and Syracuse where the army never devestates a tile and gets a starving message despite standing on the same tile for two years.Other times they are well supplied throughout a siege and devestation is showing up on the map.

It really seems hit or miss.

[A Very Super Market]

Well, FMs need the "Forager" trait in order to do so.

[John the Mad]

Well, FMs need the "Forager" trait in order to do so.

No they don't.The game seems to decide at random if your army is in supply.
Sometimes an army is out of supply the turn after moving them into enemy territory and other times its in supply for a 3 year siege.

It really becomes apparent when you move a general from a siege and two seasons later they are getting negative morale modifiers despite being in a type1 city.

Supply is broken.

[DaciaJC]

It really becomes apparent when you move a general from a siege and two seasons later they are getting negative morale modifiers despite being in a type1 city.

If, for example, your general was "starving", the next season he will be only "tightening the belt", and then next "rationing", and so forth (assuming he moves into a friendly province).

[John the Mad]

If, for example, your general was "starving", the next season he will be only "tightening the belt", and then next "rationing", and so forth (assuming he moves into a friendly province).

I'm still trying to work out the in supply and rationing issue.

Heres a question..If you get a double message during a faction announcement that your general's troops have "Belts tightened" do they only recieve the -2 morale modifier or a -4 morale modifier?

Anyhow i just witnessed an even worse route.

3700 Epirotes against 3000 romans..

Death toll was 3600 for the Eporite army and 59 for the Roman.

Though the Roman army had every unit with double or triple silver chevrons after almost 20 years of non-stop fighting.The only time i rested them was when their previous general got a triumph and they spent a season celebrating in Rome.

[Vasiliyi]

I fought a pretty tough battle today against rebel getains. I destroyed the getai early in the game and let a rebel 3/4 stack stay while I mopped up elsewhere. I decided to use my regional army of 2 levy phalanxes, 2 thurophorois, 1 slinger, 1 fm and 1 thrakian podromoi. The enemy army had a ton of heavy infantry and naked spearmen.

At first my phalanxes were being ripped apart by the naked spear men, I managed to kill one unit of them, but they literally fought to the last man. This also happened to a galothraikes unit They did not rout at all. Then I managed to make their general chase my fm and I killed him. During this time, our armies were resting, meaning our lines weren't engaged. As soon as their general died, the whole army of about 8 units hightailed it back to the hills. They seriously routed without being in combat.

Id like to say that not many of them left the field.

So yes, a generals death has massive impact on the battlefield. Especially if he is the FL of a dead faction.

[John the Mad]

I don't know it seems iffy.

I had a battle the other day with a Cartho where the general decided to march off the field after attacking me..I had a cohort of Samnites mauled by elephants,and had to use two cohorts of cav to counter them(funny how elephants are so damn fast in the game,you can't even use skirmeshers to counter them because by the time they throw their first shot the elephants have already mauled a unit or two).

After his elephants are killed he decides to go offboard.Soon after all of the units he was commanding rout.

I'm begining to think Carthos have a strong initial attack and weak morale,and staying power, if the enemy don't break on contact.