The Ups and Downs of 1.3.1

[Fisherking]

For me the up sides of 1.3 are; the more balanced economy, the pirates raiding and stopping most of the early trade, the improved naval combat to include the AI building better ships, and the AI improvement in unit selection and land combat.

The down sides I see are; the as still passiveness of factions which you are at war with, the AI still having difficulty clearing its trade ports, and the lack of meaningful diplomacy with the adding in of the "black knight" syndrome when trying to make peace.

The happiest surprise I have had was that Russia built a dry-dock in the Crimea when the second port became available.

The biggest disappointment is the "black knight diplomacy".

Before the AI still went wild declaring was but peace was usually possible. Now it is darn near imposable no matter what generous terms you offer them.

It was much better when they actually gave up things they couldn't defend and excepted peace. It was grounded in the era, anyway.

What is more, now the very friendly factions are going to war! Not just the friendly ones but the very friendly ones too.

There are a few limits they should put on the AI factions. First if they are feeble and destitute then war should not be on their agenda. They should not declare war and if they become embroiled in a war they should seek what terms they can get. Second if a faction has been at war for over 5 years, not won any battles and the economic depredations are worse for them than the opponent then war weariness should drive them to seek peace with reasonable terms or at least the statuesque. These never ending wars must stop. They are totally pointless. They can always start another war when their economic and military might allow them the strength to fight.

War weariness should build and not diminish until a faction wins some victory that results in the patriotic fervor. If not then it should result in a revolt or a complete change of government. Not necessarily a new government type but at least a new cabinet and they should seek peace.

Even the players should have to suffer if they are doing that poorly. Also it goes without saying that the other factions should accept reasonable terms or offer what they think is reasonable in order to stop the war. But that should not always be everything they lost and much, much more. The factions strength and might should play a moderating role.

[Slaists]

For me the up sides of 1.3 are; the more balanced economy, the pirates raiding and stopping most of the early trade, the improved naval combat to include the AI building better ships, and the AI improvement in unit selection and land combat.

The down sides I see are; the as still passiveness of factions which you are at war with, the AI still having difficulty clearing its trade ports, and the lack of meaningful diplomacy with the adding in of the "black knight" syndrome when trying to make peace.

The happiest surprise I have had was that Russia built a dry-dock in the Crimea when the second port became available.

The biggest disappointment is the "black knight diplomacy".

Before the AI still went wild declaring was but peace was usually possible. Now it is darn near imposable no matter what generous terms you offer them.

It was much better when they actually gave up things they couldn't defend and excepted peace. It was grounded in the era, anyway.

What is more, now the very friendly factions are going to war! Not just the friendly ones but the very friendly ones too.

There are a few limits they should put on the AI factions. First if they are feeble and destitute then war should not be on their agenda. They should not declare war and if they become embroiled in a war they should seek what terms they can get. Second if a faction has been at war for over 5 years, not won any battles and the economic depredations are worse for them than the opponent then war weariness should drive them to seek peace with reasonable terms or at least the statuesque. These never ending wars must stop. They are totally pointless. They can always start another war when their economic and military might allow them the strength to fight.

War weariness should build and not diminish until a faction wins some victory that results in the patriotic fervor. If not then it should result in a revolt or a complete change of government. Not necessarily a new government type but at least a new cabinet and they should seek peace.

Even the players should have to suffer if they are doing that poorly. Also it goes without saying that the other factions should accept reasonable terms or offer what they think is reasonable in order to stop the war. But that should not always be everything they lost and much, much more. The factions strength and might should play a moderating role.

I am not sure what I am doing differently, but, playing on VH in 1.3, I do not seem to have these (so vividly described by folks) difficulties to make peace with the AI. Most of the time AI agrees to peace either in exchange just for that: the peace or in a package with a trade deal. Sometimes it asks for some money. If it asks for too much or refuses to make peace, I just beat on the AI a bit more and it accepts the peace deal after one of the subsequent defeats.

At times, there is a faction or two that just bluntly refuse to make peace. They usually do, if the conditions become right (I beat on them more, more factions join in the war against them, etc.) in a turn or two...

In terms of diplomacy I see the biggest problem being the fact that the AI still does not make peace with other AI factions despite CA saying that inter-AI peace brokering does take place. I have not seen a single time when the AI would have made a peace deal with other AI factions. How do I know? I frequently check who is at war with whom.

[Fisherking]

I am not sure what I am doing differently, but, playing on VH in 1.3, I do not seem to have these (so vividly described by folks) difficulties to make peace with the AI. Most of the time AI agrees to peace either in exchange just for that: the peace or in a package with a trade deal. Sometimes it asks for some money. If it asks for too much or refuses to make peace, I just beat on the AI a bit more and it accepts the peace deal after one of the subsequent defeats.

At times, there is a faction or two that just bluntly refuse to make peace. They usually do, if the conditions become right (I beat on them more, more factions join in the war against them, etc.) in a turn or two...

In terms of diplomacy I see the biggest problem being the fact that the AI still does not make peace with other AI factions despite CA saying that inter-AI peace brokering does take place. I have not seen a single time when the AI would have made a peace deal with other AI factions. How do I know? I frequently check who is at war with whom.

I have had a faction offer peace one time. That was France and to except would be to abandon an ally. I didn't share a border with them but I was still a bit surprised to get the offer.

I had one faction accept peace. I had been at war with them for 75 years. It was Austria. They had one province left and I had destroyed all their regular troops and had the citizens under siege. I had offered them peace at least 30 times and they finally took it the turn before they were toast.

No other faction ever excepted peace regardless of the terms in any other campaign.

I have tried what you spoke of to make peace, but it never ever worked.

Most recently I killed off Sweden after destroying a fleet and killing 5 of their 6 stacks in one turn. The last stack only had one partial cavalry unit but retreated beyond where I could reach it, and the last region was under siege with only firelock citizens in it.

[Sheogorath]

On the matter of the AI's poor defense of cities...

This DOES somewhat make sense. In theory, by the time a state was down to the point where an enemy could launch an assault on the capitol, all that would be left would be the reserves. Militia, the old and young, and walking wounded. Wars were generally fought in the field. Nations only kept the Super Elite Awesome Guard Units of Doomzorz in cities during peacetime or en route to somewhere important.

See World War II, a good example of what happens when you just run out of men.

[Fisherking]

Regardless of what was left to defend the city, most of the time they more goad you into eliminating them with their idiotic diplomatic rhetoric about making peace when the dogs have eaten your guts or some other rubbish.

Using threats only results in an additional -10 on the diplomatic meter.

I don’t mean to rant about it though...it just has a long way to go in this department. It is actually a step backward for the deal making and negotiations for making peace in the earlier versions.

Diplomacy could also use some more options and variations, such as bringing an ally not at war into the fray, like we had in the other games. Negations to declare war on someone or make peace with someone.

Right now, from my standpoint, the poor state of diplomacy and peace making and unfounded wars are the greatest flaws in the game.

The rest can be managed.

[Slaists]

I have had a faction offer peace one time. That was France and to except would be to abandon an ally. I didn't share a border with them but I was still a bit surprised to get the offer.

I had one faction accept peace. I had been at war with them for 75 years. It was Austria. They had one province left and I had destroyed all their regular troops and had the citizens under siege. I had offered them peace at least 30 times and they finally took it the turn before they were toast.

No other faction ever excepted peace regardless of the terms in any other campaign.

I have tried what you spoke of to make peace, but it never ever worked.

Most recently I killed off Sweden after destroying a fleet and killing 5 of their 6 stacks in one turn. The last stack only had one partial cavalry unit but retreated beyond where I could reach it, and the last region was under siege with only firelock citizens in it.

What I am wondering about is what do we do differently in our campaigns?

Playing as Prussia (on VH in 1.3) I had Russia, Sweden, Poland, Austria, Dutch, Spanish and Bavaria declare war on me in quick succession. I offered Sweden peace + trade rights in the next turn. The Swedes accepted. A couple turns later Dutch and Spanish accepted white peace. I killed Bavaria. I took Hungary, Gdansk and Silesia from the Austrians and offered peace + trade rights. They accepted, no questions asked. They have been at peace with me for at least 15 turns since. While fighting Austrians, I defeated a single raiding Russian army and offered them peace + trade rights. Russians accepted and have been at peace with me for 10 turns now. So, for the last 10 turns I've been at war with Polish only. To summarize it all up: the AI seemed very reasonable in accepting my peace offers.

So, my "diplomatic landscape" surely looks very different from what you're describing. I just do not know the reason why.

As to AI offering peace to the player: it has happened to me several times. What I have not seen is the AI making peace with another AI. And that's the reason why we see 100-year "world war" raging in ETW.

[Fisherking]

I have had the odd notion for a while that the easy and normal difficulties are a little more difficult than the hard and very hard in the campaigns...not battles as those give the AI bonuses. They may just have the values standing on their heads but there is just something there...

It used to be in 1.1 & 1.2 to a lesser degree for the player it was usually simple to get a cease fire. Playing in Normal the AI just won't make peace. This is my 4th campaign in 1.3.1 and I have only had one offer excepted.

Russia was always an easy bet to get peace. In the last two campaigns as Austria and Prussia they had to be eliminated.

I played the Austrian Campaign until I had peace. It was 1815 and there were only a dozen nations left in the game. All the rest were dead. Austria stretched unbroken from Portugal to all of India. All of Africa too. I only had a few islands in the Americas and I started not one of the wars. I offered peace to everyone but the only way I ever got peace was by putting them all in the grave.

[Slaists]

I have had the odd notion for a while that the easy and normal difficulties are a little more difficult than the hard and very hard in the campaigns...not battles as those give the AI bonuses. They may just have the values standing on their heads but there is just something there...

It used to be in 1.1 & 1.2 to a lesser degree for the player it was usually simple to get a cease fire. Playing in Normal the AI just won't make peace. This is my 4th campaign in 1.3.1 and I have only had one offer excepted.

Russia was always an easy bet to get peace. In the last two campaigns as Austria and Prussia they had to be eliminated.

I played the Austrian Campaign until I had peace. It was 1815 and there were only a dozen nations left in the game. All the rest were dead. Austria stretched unbroken from Portugal to all of India. All of Africa too. I only had a few islands in the Americas and I started not one of the wars. I offered peace to everyone but the only way I ever got peace was by putting them all in the grave.

Hmm, maybe they screwed up the diplomacy part of the difficulties? I can definitely feel that the AI is rolling in cash on VH and it's troops can move further on the campaign map. I also can see that the AI is researching with lightning speed since I rarely have any techs that I can trade. AI (the largest factions) is almost always out-teching me in 1.3. Which is fine, I purposely try not to spam universities and frequently destroy the ones I conquer.

But yes, that diplomacy part: I surely seem to have much easier time making peace than you playing on an easier campaign difficulty. It would not be the first time CA messed up the difficulties though. This discussion also reminds me of an MTW 2 bug: shield values were subtracted from defense rather than being added. It took a while (and elaborate community tests) to discover that one...

[Fisherking]

I started a Swedish Campaign.

Well, on the up side, Russia made peace after losing two regions to include Moscow. No other factions declared war on me. I had to do it!

After ending the war with Russia it was a shear pleasure not to be at war with anyone while I built up my economy and then lashed out toward my objectives in Denmark and Brandenburg.

Denmark will never make peace and it was my fault but I ended up at war with Poland but diplomatically most of the mad men seem to have taken the day off.

Of course this is not the same as reporting that AI factions made peace, but maybe some day we will see that too.