all you people find it easy?

[TelexStar]

I've been reading loads of posts from people who find shogun easy on hard and expert levels! wtf?

I know I'm not crap at strategy games but i'm playing through on normal with mori and i'm finding it pretty differcult. Its not so much the battles that I find hard, its more the strategy map sections. I don't know whats more inportant to build first, the archery/spear dojo's or the larger castles (to get access to more advanced buildings/units. The only problem with this is that they take ages to build, leaving me with a relativly weak army. Alternativly, i could build spear/archery dojo's and get my forces up, but then i'll get confronted later on with hordes of cavalery/monks etc etc against my spear/archer samurai.

What do i build first? (i know mori suffer some of the poorest provences to start with)

[The Bear]

No the game is not easy. The explanation is that In this forum, there is a lot of experienced players posting here. With time, practice and exchange of ideas you will get the hang of it.

It also helps if you start with a koku rich clan like hojo , when you are beginning. You can find hints and tips in some older threads in this forum and on fan sites- explore.

If you have specific problems, post them here, i'm sure that you get good advice. Have fun

[Didz]

Don't get discouraged.

IMO: Mori is the hardest clan to master. I have been playing STW since it was first released and I am currently struggling with the Mori clan on Normal difficulty. This is my fourth attempt using the 'Hardman' rules.

Shimazu, Hojo and Uesugi are much easier. Oda is hard and so far I haven't managed to win at all with Imagawa.

Also be aware that many people who claim amazing victories on this forum neglect to mention that they are using cheats to boost their Koku etc. Any idiot can win if they switch off the resource limitations.

[TelexStar]

thx

Telex
ll l ll llll l lll l ll

[This message has been edited by TelexStar (edited 05-25-2001).]

[Moriboy]

I wouldn't go quite so far to say any "idiot" can win with muchkoku. It does free one from attention to fiscal detail but you can still get your ass whipped if you don't pay attention to the comp's strategic capabilities, especially if you don't build troops like there's no tomorrow. If you enjoy the challenge of creative financing, don't use the cheat. I only use it on expert level because the AI deficit spends.

[ShaiHulud]

Telex.... Yah, I recall putting up a post remarkably like yours... The learning curve between easy level and expert level climbs very sharply. I'll offer some advice on when to build infra but you'll find that that's only part of the problem.

No matter which clan you play, overbuilding early is an invitation to defeat. Koku spent for a castle or land improvement on turn one will be sorely missed when an aggressive neighbor takes the province you invested in. Thus, the first rule is don't make improvements in provinces where an enemy's actions can void them easily by attacking.

Early on the enemy fears numbers as much as it does quality. Thus, the second rule is don't sacrifice strength in arms for investment in infrastructure or for the sake of having only 'good' troops. Secure the borders, THEN build infrastructure. If you have not enough for both, build troops. They will protect what you have and can take what your enemy leaves under-garrisoned. One Yari costs as much as two ashi... the cost of a new castle means NOT getting a Yari and 3 ashi.

The fastest method for increasing income is conquering your enemy's provinces. Investing heavily in your own infrastructure means you won't have a large enough army to take new lands. It's pointless to have a Monk or cavalry dojo if it takes most of your annual income to buy just one of them. Thus, the third rule is build for the future only when you know you HAVE a future.

When you have enough extra income to build a new castle and dojos, don't be redundant. As you begin with a dojo for both archers and foot your next choice should either be for the improvement of troop quality (iron sands, +'s to honor), new types (cav, ND, Monk) or to diversify troop production (one castle for foot, one castle for archers,etc).

It takes years to complete land improvements, harbors, and mines. It will be more years before they pay for themselves and begin to show profit. Make sure you'll be around for the payoff...hehe

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Wind fells blossoms, rain
fells steel,yet bamboo bends and drinks

[Shuko]

[QUOTE]Originally posted by TelexStar:
[B]I've been reading loads of posts from people who find shogun easy on hard and expert levels! wtf?

I am ok at expert level with any clan but I need a good start ie. several turns. Perhaps many of the people who claim to play well continually 'save' and then play on for a short while and save again. Obviously most of these players then go back to their last 'save' if they get a setback. I don't consider that winning.

You need to analyse the AI patterns of defence / attack. Then you can make sound progress at any level and defeat armies four or five times the size of yours.

[borisus]

When you play Mori you must forget about new castles and land improvments,just build more YS and kick ass,and remeber to put the tax rate on the min'.
first kick Takeda and the rebel province,then take the Shimazu province of Kaga and make peace with him,after that you have many options.

hope that helps

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"A WISE MAN ONCE SAID,LETS KICK THAIR ASS!"

[BlackWatch McKenna]

BIG MONEY-BIG PRIZES
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In Japanese, BlackWatch means "iron-man". Ok - so it does not mean Iron Man.

I am currently playing Green Clan Shimazu on Normal. I dont use the cheat codes and I only save once per session (meaning, If i lose a battle, it might be time to restart the campaign...).

That being said, I have come up with a crazy tricky way to ensure myself some money:
(1) I take my beginning 3,000 koku and build 2 ports; and
(2) If my peasants dont let me down the following year, i put all the money in ashigaru; and
(3) I use the "Gobear" strategy for grabbing Ronin Island right off the bat.

Once the ports get finished, and I have another good harvest that brings me 1,500 koku, i build another freaking Port.

WARNING: This is a crazy man technique. You wont have any reinforcements to speak of for most of your Early Game.

In the beginning I was dirt poor. Its Mid-Game now, and when "my peasants are lazy" and the crops come in at 50% of normal, i am still sitting at about 3,300 koku to spend that season, which is plenty for where i am in the game. Currently, I have about 7 ports (six built, 1 captured).

Its nice to have Tele-Port ability to send reinforcements where you need them, too.

I'll let you know if this idea pans out. Its working so far!



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// Black
// "Did we win?"

[Maltz]

I am also new here, and here are the things I learned that helped me most to win the hard and expert campaigns.

(1) Focusing troop productions. I usually focus troop productions on 2 or 3 provinces (usually with armor shop or honor+1 bonus) at the early stage. And even when I finish the map I have about 6. It will save a lot of money upkeep. And don't bother even build a castle on your other provinces The upgrades of farmlands and mines are really good.

(2) Minimize border provinces. It is true for all strategy games.

Normal ronins are very passive. (The abnormal ones are the leftover from a collapsed clan. Sometimes they are too large in number and thus become aggressive.) So passive ronins won't attack you as long as you put a 60-men unit on the border. This can save a lot of border garrisons! Also, AI seems to be much less agressive to ronin as it would be to human players.

We don't need to directly attack the province we want to take first AI will put a lot of troops in the province you like most. But they got distracted if you surprise them by storming those undefended provinces nearby. The next season pull back all your troops in other provinces, whether sieging castles or not, to the real target.

(3) Flank attack. I think it is very useful to divide your army into 4 or 5 groups. About 2 archers, 2 Yaris, and some other types you have. The attack squads will do the flanks while the frontal assault team march towads the enemy. Of course if you got a height advantage, don't waste it

(4) Be very aggressive. On harder levels AIs have much more income than we do. The longer we wait and develop, the harder the game becomes (I never finish the map with a Citadal ) I attack as long as I can win (and hold it).

I hope this is useful. Please correct me if you have a different view.


[This message has been edited by Maltz (edited 05-25-2001).]

[This message has been edited by Maltz (edited 05-25-2001).]

[This message has been edited by Maltz (edited 05-25-2001).]

[celtiberoijontychi]

In hard, and even more in expert mode, u have to be very agressive from the beginning.
If not, whe you get your first +1honor yaris, the enemy will already have monks and naginata, then it's goodbye.

Hardest of all is playing mori and imagawa with 120 men units, no time limit and ironman rules.

For those who don't know, 120 men units means:
uits cost twice as much and take half a year to train.
Due to deficit spending, the AI has lots of dojos and builds up at the same rate as with 60 men units. In the fist years you will only be able to build about 1 archer and two yaris per year! Even if u have enough money due to fast expansion, u wil need many dojos, since a province can only produce 2 units per year. When u fight the horde in a 3 province front (e.g. mikawa-mino-echizen), u have at least 200-300 casualties per season, i.e. between 800-1200 per year, so you need between 4 and 6 dojos working all the time, that amounts to 3000-4000 koku if you build just Yari.

So:
u must expand fast
u must raise high taxes
u must train shinobi for fresh conquered provinces without leaving garrison (u need the troops elsewhere) or lowering taxes (u can't afford it)
u must train many troops all the time, since the enemy has a bigger numeric advantage earlier in the game
u must upgrade lands to ensure future koku for horde-fighting
u must have at least 4 dojos around 1550
u need some ports, but it's better to take them from the enemy.

As you see, these goals are in conflict, so indeed you must take decissions very carefuly. As it has been said from Napoleon: 1 battle lost, one wrong decission will be your doom.

[EasyCo]

[JoBeare]

celtiberoijontychi,
I agree with you mostly, but would disagree with you on few points.

High taxes work and shinobi work well with Hojo and Uesugi. Low tax rates and no shinobi work better for the rest of the clans. Thats for the first 8-10 years.

I don't think the AI can build more than 1 unit every two turns when the unit size is set to 100 or 120. It just seems that way. I think there was/is a bug that allows the human player switch the unit size in mid game and the computer would continue to build small units. I don't think there is one that allows the computer to kick out twice as many troops per dojo/province. Correct me if I am wrong.

2 dojos is usually sufficient for the first 6-8 years. One for SA/YS and one for YA. Concentrate resources on one dojo. Numeric superiority is critical in the early part of the game. Make sure the dojos are cranking out a constant stream of reinforcements.

In the mid game, concentrate resources on one type of specialty unit. Don't build a sword dojo in province where you already have a temple. (I think Shai already stated this, but it's too important) For that matter don't build a sword dojo if you have a temple anywhere. This applies for years 8-15. One specialty unit should form the core of your fightling force.

Skip most of the farm upgrades. Skip building ports except in rare cases. Mines are alright as long as they don't take away from your army.

JoBeare

[celtiberoijontychi]

Jo beare, maybe i explaines it wrong. Of course, AI doesn't build 120's in one season, it just builds more Dojos.
And, since they have practically unlimited koku, they don't notice the impact of higher price, but you do, so the "comparative advantage"! of AI clans is bigger than with 60's

I'm rather for hightax-shinobi because i was talking of Mori-Clan, wich has a crap income and can't afford low taxes.

Of course, playinfg with Mori, u just need a temple, 2 spear and 1 archer dojo in mid-game, when facing the Horde. Before this, 2 dojos will do; you won't be able to pay for more anyway.

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Long live Celtiberos
Glory and Honour to Clan Celtiberos

[evilc]

year just take all takeda's 3 proviences 1st turn, then when u can shimazu's 1, then quickly make peace with him (he is a peace lover) this means u only have 1 border to defend.

with all that secure and loyal, attack oda untill u get all the way accross to mutsu and then kill shimazu, simple.

also, with imagawa, invade owari 1st turn, kill oda, then slowly kill the all ronin land HEHE (or put in .conan. cheat and play asronin)

[Toranaga_Sama]

PMFJI, what are ironman rules?