About the situation on the EB forums as of late

[a completely inoffensive name]

I resent the attacks on the Tavern people. For the most part me and Meth and the rest have contributed to the EB and EB2 forums (I can easily bring up examples in a moments notice) and we have confined our fun to the Tavern social group which is what the Roman haters should do. To even have the nerve of asking to keep your Roman haters club going on in the EB forums after doing 99% of the spam in the past couple months and then attempting to cast most of the blame on us is incredibly ludicrous.

[Bucefalo]

I was also a bit annoyed to see how spam were increasing everywhere, and i only read sometimes the forum to find some info and read if there is any news. But as of late i had to search throught a mountain of non sense posts... at last the team has decided to act and i´m happy about it ,
when you post always try to add something interesting to the discussion... don´t simply say some bad joke or whatever cross your mind.

Guys, think about this, the more time the EB team spend moderating, the less time they spend working on the mod. It´s your choice. But by spamming you are making all of us wait more for the release of the mod

[Macilrille]

1. We are adults, not children and we should act as such, nor are the EB team pedagogues; respect, restraint and general good behavior should be our watchwords. It should not even be necessary for them to moderate our discussions.

2. The Romaioktonoi started out as a reaction to the Vanilla RTW focus on Rome, as a sort of counterweight. There is nothing wrong in that (and I am a "Roman Fanboy" remember? But I am also an objective-ish historian). It is not the Romaioktonoi in General that is the problem, it is a few spamming members. There is a reason that I, a Danish belæiever in free speech has two of them on my ignore list. I was simply sick of all the spam. People who are just being a nuisance for the sake of being a nuisance, and who actively wrecks other peoples questions, requests for advice, etc., simply does not have a room in my life.
Maion fast recognised his mistake when I pointed out to him that things were getting out of proportion over a month ago (evident on my wall if you are in doubt). You, his sycopants and followers should do the same. What actually happened to him while all the spam and RL kept me away (and someone not on my ignore list please answer this ;-) )? It is not the Romaioktonoi that are the problem, it is but a few of them.


Anyway, guys...

EB rises over Vanilla and other mods in accuracy, authenticity and as many other areas as you can possibly imagine. It is an example to other mods. Should its forums not also be?

[Darius]

I actually all but gave up bothering to post anything even remotely pertaining to my Roman Campaign despite having several occasions where I had a rather strong desire to do so. The main reason of course being because I felt it would simply get bogged down by anti-Roman spam then simply locked. Hopefully things will improve soon, but I'm gonna give it some time before I make any new threads just to be sure the message gets across before hand.

[Blxz]

I have been away for a while and reading this rings a chord or two with me. Definately needed to be said. I like rome and am annoyed that it has been difficult to post anything about the topic.

However this quote:

--------
Quote:
Originally Posted by abou
We don't have to agree to anything. You people seem to assume that you have some part in how the EB Team decides to run its fora. You don't, and it is as simple as that.
--------

comes across as decidedly cold. It almost has the effect of turning me away from the forum in the same way that Foot (or was it MAA or someone else) mentioned about the battle mech thingy. If abou is a EB modder or someone in the forum admin or something I would like to (respectfully) remind you that the forums and EB itself is made popular by the people who use and follow it. Those people have no right to crap throughout the forum and degrade the enjoyment people get. But, to just brush everyone off is rude and uncalled for and promotes exactly the opposite of what I assume this forum stands for and what this entire thread was made for.

If that is the view of the EB staff to its fans and supporters then I am more than happy to leave and never look back, as much as it would disappoint me.

[Krusader]

I have been away for a while and reading this rings a chord or two with me. Definately needed to be said. I like rome and am annoyed that it has been difficult to post anything about the topic.

However this quote:

--------
Quote:
Originally Posted by abou
We don't have to agree to anything. You people seem to assume that you have some part in how the EB Team decides to run its fora. You don't, and it is as simple as that.
--------

comes across as decidedly cold. It almost has the effect of turning me away from the forum in the same way that Foot (or was it MAA or someone else) mentioned about the battle mech thingy. If abou is a EB modder or someone in the forum admin or something I would like to (respectfully) remind you that the forums and EB itself is made popular by the people who use and follow it. Those people have no right to crap throughout the forum and degrade the enjoyment people get. But, to just brush everyone off is rude and uncalled for and promotes exactly the opposite of what I assume this forum stands for and what this entire thread was made for.

If that is the view of the EB staff to its fans and supporters then I am more than happy to leave and never look back, as much as it would disappoint me.

With all due respect.
We have had these forums up for five years soon. We have had many, let's call it "troublemakers" up through the years. What you see is now is simply the EB team utterly fed up, after countless incidents and warnings. Most EB members don't even bother coming on to the public forums, because of all this crap that has happened up through the years. Hence why someone might come off as cold.
And also see that he was replying to someone who had taken part in turning the forums into a spam cesspit and now wanted us to agree to some terms so they should stop spamming...the entire EB team got, mildly put, pissed off as hell. These are OUR forums (within the ORG), not ours and Romaioktonoi's forums. They caused trouble and now we should agree to some terms so they will leave our forums free of spam?

And to clarify: We have nothing against Romaioktonoi and the intent behind the group. An anti-Roman group presence wouldn't bothered us if it was kept with reasonable limits...that is debating on why Rome is so bad, posting screenshots of Romans being routed, AARs of Pyrrhus turning Rome into a catapult testing range or coming with rebuttals/arguments to debates like "Roman legions crushed Macedonians because Maks were pussies!" . That we wouldn't have anything against (as long as they wouldn't have devolved into mudslinging and insults, per forum rules). But we had to take action because of the thread derailing, insults, silly oneliners and thread hijacks...and as posts in both EB fora have shown it was an action that non-Romaioktonoi EB fans welcomed.

And a last point to make it crystal clear. The warnings I posted are not by me as a person, but on behalf of the EB team.

[Phalanx300]

You guys are making to big a deal out of this... People not being serious all the time brings in some life in the brewery as the Dutch saying goes.

[A Terribly Harmful Name]

You guys are making to big a deal out of this... People not being serious all the time brings in some life in the brewery as the Dutch saying goes.

I very much agree with you. Whereas spam is not good, I would probably never get so angry if the problem was all about it. As I said previously, this is the internet and people will always be bold enough to post crap when they can, so there is nothing new under the sun as far as this is concerned. No reason to be all pissed off in the same way as a personal face to face insult or a real life fight, or someone will need to control your anger for you later.

EDIT - So far, the EB Team is the only one that seemingly reacts in such a peculiar manner. Many other teams have about the same problems and the same challenges yet they try to differentiate between the priorities of a game and the "priorities of reality", as I would call it. This also has been the only place where I have seen respected modding team members openly calling longtime fans as trolls, or using derogatory attitudes of the like, and I'm sure there was more of it before.

[Owen Glyndwr]

A few years back I used to be a big problem on the fora I frequented. It was disgraceful. Thankfully a few people notified me of this and I soon learned the error of my ways. My outlook on posting changed. I realized that it is not the number of posts that marks your importance, but the quality given within. I think for a forum to operate efficiently it's members must realize that fora are ultimately a center wherein opinions can be brought forward, discussed, and quite possibly exchanged in a mature, thoughtful manner.

A good way to ensure this is to simply reread what you wrote just before you post it. And as you're reading, ask yourself a few questions: "What is my objective in posting this? Is it to inform, to persuade or to dissuade? Will my post improve the thread as a whole relating to the topic originally opened? Or is there simply no point at all, I'm merely reacting to what someone else said." Also, "If I do post this, what will others think of me and the thread as a whole? Will said thread be closed as a result of this post? Will it prevent others from reading further as a result of this post?" And finally: "Will my objectives, whatever they may be, be suitably accomplished in this post? Is there any way they might be misinterpreted? Is there anything anyone would find outrageously objectionable in this post?"

If you go through all those questions, and don't find any shortfalls, go ahead and post. However if you do, then there isn't much point in putting the post down. Many times throughout the day I will start to post something, but stop part way through because I realize that the post is pointless or redundant. I'm not saying that users should go through and never post anything to the fora, I'm just saying maintaining a degree of restraint is healthy, and beneficial to all involved.

Overall it is important to remember that every time you post something to the fora, you are creating in an image that others on the fora will identify you as. Most people here do not know you personally. They have no personal experiences with you to draw from. They know only the things you have written in the past.

[Phalanx300]

A few years back I used to be a big problem on the fora I frequented. It was disgraceful. Thankfully a few people notified me of this and I soon learned the error of my ways. My outlook on posting changed. I realized that it is not the number of posts that marks your importance, but the quality given within. I think for a forum to operate efficiently it's members must realize that fora are ultimately a center wherein opinions can be brought forward, discussed, and quite possibly exchanged in a mature, thoughtful manner.

A good way to ensure this is to simply reread what you wrote just before you post it. And as you're reading, ask yourself a few questions: "What is my objective in posting this? Is it to inform, to persuade or to dissuade? Will my post improve the thread as a whole relating to the topic originally opened? Or is there simply no point at all, I'm merely reacting to what someone else said." Also, "If I do post this, what will others think of me and the thread as a whole? Will said thread be closed as a result of this post? Will it prevent others from reading further as a result of this post?" And finally: "Will my objectives, whatever they may be, be suitably accomplished in this post? Is there any way they might be misinterpreted? Is there anything anyone would find outrageously objectionable in this post?"

If you go through all those questions, and don't find any shortfalls, go ahead and post. However if you do, then there isn't much point in putting the post down. Many times throughout the day I will start to post something, but stop part way through because I realize that the post is pointless or redundant. I'm not saying that users should go through and never post anything to the fora, I'm just saying maintaining a degree of restraint is healthy, and beneficial to all involved.

Overall it is important to remember that every time you post something to the fora, you are creating in an image that others on the fora will identify you as. Most people here do not know you personally. They have no personal experiences with you to draw from. They know only the things you have written in the past.

You must have taken a long time on this post.

And ofcourse people must be on topic and not spam where it is not needed but you can't expect people to be 100% serious.

[Megas Methuselah]

If you "roman haters" want to discuss non-topic conversations, go do that in a social group. You guys have no right to derail our threads in the EB Forums.

[strategos roma]

Personally, I agree that the spam situation has gone out of hand. I've seen other gaming forums completely dominated by spammers and I don't wish to see the EB forums go this way. And remember, the more time team members spend moderating our posts, the longer it will take to finish EB2. So pls be considerate and act sensibly. Thx.

[Aemilius Paulus]

You must have taken a long time on this post.

Bah, WTH? Do people ever read the whole thread on these forums:

I personally agree with this. Whether it is my authoritarianism or my innate wish for order in life, I wish the EB Team would exercise more authority, when it can find the time to do so. I am immensely relieved this thread came up and hopefully will put an end to this madness.

I have nothing against anti-Roman posts and absolutely nothing against the people of that group, such as Maion and Satalexton, but when it clutters up these forums is when I cringe, although not at the people, but at the idea of the group itself. Romani-hating is perfectly fine, just as long as it is confined to the Social Group. Such as the EB Tavern and our off-topic discussions that got us Taverners in trouble. Taverners, namely Meth and ACIN used to be the past Romaioktonoi of the forums, a great bane. Then we turned to Social Groups, and what a wonder! Until the recent but brief ACIN resurgence, the EB Tavern has contained its off-topic material in its own group, and we became the most active single place AFAIK on .Org, with now about 13-14k posts.

I believe the Romaioktonoi should take this as an example, and create their own rich but contained community inside their SG. And now, more than ever, with the newly implemented SG thread system (may Tosa's name be forever praised!) the possibility for a splendid and vibrant community inside a SG is better than ever. EB Forums are for EB, and anything that interferes with EB, such as Romaioktonoi off-topic veering and/or spam is counter-productive, and thus should be banished. No reason, however, why it cannot exists in a SG. From my EB Tavern experience, the Romaioktonoi SG should be a marvellous place, as nothing beats your own SG.


I also disagree. Because the manner in which this anti-Roman material is mentioned is provocative, it is incensive, it will generate some sort of comment, and no matter what will be the nature of that comment, threads will derail. If I posted anti-Greek/Hellenic comments, you people would surely post something in defence, clarification, discussion, query, arguments, etc, etc. Same with your comments, which can provoke response.

I am an atheist, but if I mentioned some bits of it here, it would perhaps evoke responses from other people, or at least quiet dissension/anger/annoyance. Thus, I do not mention my atheism here, and you should not mention your Romaioktonoi, and someoen else should not mention FYROM. All three cause controversy. All three lead to thread lockage. Whether you post it in "rule-abiding manner" is irrelevant. The result is the same.

Just take your stuff to your group, and everyone will experience "great relief". Especially your group, just like the EB Taverners did.

[Blxz]

@ Krusader

Your comment

"And also see that he was replying to someone who had taken part in turning the forums into a spam cesspit and now wanted us to agree to some terms so they should stop spamming"

My mistake. It was a fairly broad sounding comment I quoted and replied to and I misunderstood to who it was directed. I withdraw my previous comments about the eb team. Honestly you guys must put up with a decent amount of crap, I've no need to comment anymore about this.

[pezhetairoi]

I left the Org a year ago after the closure of the second EB Tavern, because I felt that the EB Team had overstepped their boundaries and, perhaps, come off as being a little too tyrannical, but more than that (and this is by far the major underlying cause), because I had become disillusioned with the Tavern as a place for harmless kidding around.

Since that day, I have only browsed every now and then but never ever posted again, despite having been with EB almost since the beginning (and still loving it now). Our rationale in those days for the Tavern was that it provided a single place for clowning around, with the (perhaps over-noble) objective of therefore minimising the spam on the forum proper by providing an outlet.

There were those who did agree with me, and thus even when we posted playfully in other threads, we made sure we also had something serious to say at the same time. But none of that compares to some of the drivel I've been reading on the forums lately--it's absolutely disgraceful how the forums have degenerated into such a case.

I am standing by the EB team on this one, while I felt perhaps it was a little too heavy-handed in the past to have closed our Tavern, it was action in the same vein as this--and there is such a need for it now. 'This is how liberty dies', you say? I say this: I value ORDER more than FREEDOM. It's not as if the EB team is some dictatorial entity. They have their limits too and their need for play, and they have had years to prove that they are not about to start banning people just because they don't like them personally and/or because they have the power to do so. And after all, they are far, far more entitled to decide how this forum runs than any of us EB players, because without them creating the game that is EB, this forum wouldn't even exist.

And as someone above me said, the longer they take to patrol these forums, the less work on EBII they can do. So the less trouble they are given, the faster the next great version will come out. So we need now to nip the problems in the bud rather than let them grow.

So as far as I'm concerned, good call, EB team. It's time to stamp down hard on those who start frivolous threads. And for the rest of us, if you haven't got anything good, serious or constructive to say, don't say it.

[Skullheadhq]

Please quote the post in which I set conditions for the stop of spam kthx

[satalexton]

Dear all,

The Romaioktonoi have undergone reforms, where they all shall follow a 'code of honour'. It is not anything fancy, but simply a basic set of dicipline of sorts, designed to be stricter than the standards that the EB team would expect the original member would be. Quite frankly, they are sticking to it quite well, noticing their lack of activity in Krusader's thread.

I am aware that me and the Romaioktonoi are a rather loud contribuiter to the spam that attracted the ire of the EB team, due to our unique stance and advocation that "Romans are the True Barbarians of the classical period". There are occasions that I, myself, are quite vocal at this opinion, obstencibly in threads about Romans. I am regretful of that, and as leader of Romaioktonoi, I shall demostrate a stricter dicipline than the average member.

Please, let it be now. This has dissolved into a Romaioktonoi scapegoating competition, and frankly we do not enjoy it. We are regretful of our past acts and intend to turn a new leaf. We tolerate the recent baised slander and defamation because we wish to restore peace, as defending and retorting would only result in flame wars and further strife. There is a great deal of hypocrisy and irony going on, and it's not doing the whole situation any good. I will not point fingers, as all parties are guilty for it. That includes some of the Romaioktonoi.

Romaioktonoi, I know I've downright bent the very laws I've set by speaking out in this thread. I urge all of you to NOT back me up with anything, please stay tolerant and understand that this is an ONLY exception. Your vocal support will only cause more flames and strife. Please, especially some of you, please. Not even posts that begin with "I speak on behalf of myself, not our group".

I sincerely hope this shall be my last opinion over this whole matter.

Hoping for peace,

Satalexton.

[Phalanx300]

Bah, WTH? Do people ever read the whole thread on these forums:

I said that because he had about 20 rules which you need to use after you made a post to make it fit and seeing the size of it, which is insane.

And I'm not a part of the Romainoktoi as far as I'm aware, I've only speaken against the Romans some times in the past but I actually play as them a couple of times so it was just to play around.

[Tellos Athenaios]

Please quote the post in which I set conditions for the stop of spam kthx

You didn't set terms & conditions explicitly. However your post entails a Quid-Pro-Quo which itself requires some kind of set of conditions.

First, the actual proposal is neither here nor there (as anybody can read in post #1). Few seem to have actually taken the time to digest what we wrote; first try to grasp what we say (that goes not just for you). In this case, it spectacularly fails to grasp post #1, talk about collective cognetive distortion (the kind where "not 100% compatible with Windows" is magically transformed into "100% guaranteed compatibility with Windows" and "exact same location as your RTW install" turns out to be interpreted as "any place you <minced oath> well like").

As an aside, a Quid Pro Quo *is* something which by definition entails "terms & conditions". A software license like the GPL can be considered Quid Pro Quo: you get to use the subject of the license any way you want, but once you distribute it you must make the source of your version available under the [same/compatible] license.

Now to answer your question. I have already explained about the Quid Pro Quo involved in your post by asking us to agree with another post. This translates directly into: You want an endorsement of the EB Team of whatever pet projects you (and fellows) are going to launch; be it screenshot competitions or AARs or poetry in exchange for a promise to stop spamming. As made very clear by the tone of post #1; bargains are more than out of the question whatever way you put it irrespective of what you bargain for (be it endorsements of future threads, pleas on behalf of somebody who is banned from the fora, or anything). If not then the replies to your post should have.

It might have sounded reasonable at first to ask for "official" endorsement but again it fails to take into account post #1 entirely. There is a very clear message you are sending us between the lines (perhaps not intentionally) and it reads to us "Why bother?".

[Rahwana]

Maybe I just didn't undersand this, but I guess this Romanikantoni banning is happened when I start a thread, asking who are they?

EDIT : I jst need a simple explanation, wat's their motivation behind this... showering a forum with useless spams seems to "naive" for me, if it was done just for fun

[chenkai11]

Maybe I just didn't undersand this, but I guess this Romanikantoni banning is happened when I start a thread, asking who are they?

EDIT : I jst need a simple explanation, wat's their motivation behind this... showering a forum with useless spams seems to "naive" for me, if it was done just for fun

No, it's not like that.

No one against no one. EB team just want to remind every beloved EB fans to behave (but with a slight p*ssed tone - I guessed).

Behave doesn't mean to be too serious, some slightly off topic joke is ok, or some passionate expression towards his faction is also ok. The not OK were mentioned already.

[Macilrille]

And immaculate timing, I have just been told to keep in isolation for I have influenza H1N1, so I have to spend time on something ;-)

[Cute Wolf]

And I am soory if I was offend anyone, especially AP

[Aemilius Paulus]

And I am soory if I was offend anyone, especially AP

Whaaa, why? You were not a spammer and even Satalexton did not make me ill-disposed to him. Whenever some Roman-hater woudl post a spam message, it made me loathe Romaioktonoi more, but not the person psotign the spam itself.

[thecellarlife]

The fact that the EB team felt they had to post this shows how stupid some of you people are.

1) It's a game.
2) This mod was meant to represent history as accurately as possible, and also educate those who do not know all the details of it.
3) To have fun with history, and change it in our own personal ways.

Now as far as that goes, it's great that people find connection with history, but when you start fighting each other because of a game, it just gets stupid.

It just shows how little we have moved forward in 2000 years.


If you want to fight, someone should create a specific forum where everyone can have their blog wars against each other and keep it out of whats important: The improvement of Europa Barbarorum.

[Ludens]

The problem is not people fighting over the game, or history, but that certain patrons treated the EB forums as their own personal playground.

[Owen Glyndwr]

And immaculate timing, I have just been told to keep in isolation for I have influenza H1N1, so I have to spend time on something ;-)

Ooo yikes. I hope you get better soon!

[Ferromancer]

I personally agree with this. Whether it is my authoritarianism or my innate wish for order in life, I wish the EB Team would exercise more authority, when it can find the time to do so. I am immensely relieved this thread came up and hopefully will put an end to this madness.

The local authoritarian and the local libertarian have something to agree about. The EB team owns this forum. We are their humble guests. They set the rules, and we can choose to follow them or not. Of course, whoever does not follow the rules must accept the consequences of their behavior.

Show no hesitation in banning whoever annoys you, and feel no guilt. Run it exactly as you see fit.

[Macilrille]

EB rises over Vanilla and other mods in accuracy, authenticity and as many other areas as you can possibly imagine. It is an example to other mods. Should its forums not also be?

As for that damn flu I can tell you that it was the illest I have ever been, getting close to being unable to care for myself anymore. I got declared non-contagious Thursday, which was in the nick of time, for I had to attend a Historical Conference at Cambridge Saturday (travelling Friday)...
I was knackered and had not recovered, so instead I got a cold ;-) that is passing now, but if and when you get the h1n1, get rest before you set out to conquer the world. It is also not equally bad on everybody- I was hard hit, so worry not too much.

Thanks for the well-wishes.

[Blxz]

I must have been one of the lucky ones. I got swine flu (H1N1) about 2 weeks ago. Reasonably sick, but no where near enough to what it sounds like you got. I have had regualr flu worse. Actually, I got a secondary chest infection and thats what really knocked me about. I guess good strong Australian breeding kept me going. Healthy bunch we are over here.