Fighting the Arche Seleukia

[Bumblebee]

Originally posted over at twcenter, but posting this here as well to get a good range of thoughts on it.

So I started a campaign as the Koinon Hellenon, a challenge to begin with! But with some clever maneuvering and a boatload of luck, I've managed to gain control of the Greek peninsula from Thermon and Demetrias on south and even gained a good amount of ground in Mesopotamia. How that happened was actually a bit of random chance (as far as I know ) as Pelogram suddenly became my property, thrusting me into a war with Arche Seleukia.

Things are at kind of a standstill at the moment with Seleukia relentlessly sieging Ipsos turn after turn of me beating them away and most of my battles end up with equal casualties on either side. At the moment I'm mustering mixed forces of Classic Hoplites, Toxotai archers, Hellenic Heavy Skirmishers, a unit of the Hellenic Distinguished Hoplites (the heavy infantry one), and a couple of Greek Medium Cavalry units. It seems that most of the damage is being done by the Phalanx that they're fielding.

I've had pretty good luck with the Hellenic Heavy Skirmishers keeping the phalanxes busy and let the Toxotai hammer away while my other forces deal with the rest of the Seleukian army, but it comes back down to old-fashioned close-quarters combat when they run out of ammunition.

Is there a better way of dealing with Arche Seleukia? Am I going to have to be going heavy on Skirmisher/Archer units to beat the phalanx attrition?

Campaign is H/H

[king of thracia]

Coordinated simultaneous cavalry charges on isolated phalanxes. Expand northward to the bosphorus and grab horse archers. They'll shoot until they're out and THEN charge! All-in-one

[Centurio Nixalsverdrus]

Well, my deep regrets to you sir. Fighting the AS as the KH is a sysiphos' task. And the fact that you chose H as your battle difficulty makes it even worse.

A sound choice against phalanxes are phalanxes of better quality, which you have no access to. Another option is phalanxes on a higher ground than the opposing phalanx, and that's what you should do. Take your Greek phalanx (March of Time you have I guess, when not, hire the mercenary variant) and position it on a hill, the steeper the better. Their Argyraspides and Klerouchoi will brainlessly throw themselves upon your sarissai. Make sure you have hired some pretty good cavalry (Thraikioi Prodromoi, Hippeis Xystophoroi and Misthophoroi Hippeis Thessalikoi - forget the Greek Hippeis, any cavalry that uses their spear overhand is a waste of money in that regard) and charge the enemy into their back. The archers and slinger you deploy behind the phalanx even higher on that hill, height drastically auments their kill ratio.

Well, you might have noticed that I play Makedonia mostly.

[Brave Brave Sir Robin]

Don't waste your time with standard Toxotai. Hire Cretans and Bosphorans if you can. Otherwise, forget archers and concentrate on more Peltasts who can really rip into the sides of AS formations. Theuroperoi also work well in this regard and can hold off some of the nastier cavalry they can throw your way.

[Bumblebee]

Well, my deep regrets to you sir. Fighting the AS as the KH is a sysiphos' task. And the fact that you chose H as your battle difficulty makes it even worse.

I'll take that to mean that victory will be that much sweeter

Anyway, your suggestion then Centurio is to fight a wall with a wall until my pick axe is available?

[satalexton]

Thorakitai mixed with phalangitai works wonders, the idea is to make them lose cohesion while holding them in place...After that, charge each 'isolated' moshpit with cavalry to rout them.

[Centurio Nixalsverdrus]

I'm not sure what you mean with "pick-axe".

Even when you get your own Phalangitai version: from what I've heard they would be no match for the Seleukides, so if you chose phalanx, then make sure you're on a hill. You have great heavy infantry as KH, but it's the combination of all weapons that makes the difference.

[Bumblebee]

Pick Axe in reference to other elements of my force that would flank the opposing phalanx, that is when they're not mixing it up with other Seleukian elements.

[HopAlongBunny]

Anyway, your suggestion then Centurio is to fight a wall with a wall until my pick axe is available?

That's pretty much the only option. You might find slings more effective that bows; esp. from the flank or rear...but then there is the problem of "friendly fire" :p

Whatever you use to pin is going to take losses; can be "somewhat" minimized by "halt"/"guard" on contact. Heavy cav is preferred for the "hammer" but all melee tends to get ugly at higher difficulties.

Enjoy

[Andy1984]

And definitly make sure you have at least one unit of tindanotae for scaring-purposes.

About archers in the open (and even more so in a city battle without stone walls): they're highly inefficient against phalanxes, because of the big shields the latter carry. After you've killed their general, I'd try to storm isolated phalangites from several sides with hoplitai, hoping for mass routs. This should still be possible with H battle difficulty.

good luck,

Andy

[Mikhail Mengsk]

About strategy, you should build a STRONG army and land it in Syria. Take its main cities, sack them and destroy all the buildings. Repeat that every time you can, wearing down its economy. If you take Babylonia and Seleukia you have taken down a good part of their turn income.

[athanaric]

Secure all Eastern Mediterranean islands (i.e. Krete and Kypros) as well as the Crimean provinces ASAP. These provinces are of vital strategic and economic importance AND give you access to great auxiliaries.


Missile troops:

Standard Toxotai are the worst archers in the game. You should only use them as garrison, as elephant bait or in emergency situations.

Toxotai Kretikoi are very good (probably the best) high-end archers, as are the Thureopherontes Toxotai from the Crimean region. For light support, use Skythian Foot Archers or Caucasian Archers.

Rhodian Slingers give you a great advantage over all your enemies, as they outrange all other slingers and most archers. Great vs. ranged cavalry, or armoured troops in general.

Skythian HAs and Riders are very cost-effective light ranged cavalry who complement the Hellenic troops very well.


Melee:

As chargers/melee cav, use only Lonchophoroi Hippeis, Prodromoi and Hippeis Xystophoroi.


Remember that cavalry superiority more often than not decides the battle, moreso if you are playing against the AI, which usually forgets to bring any horsies at all (apart from the obnoxious constantly mercenary-hiring generals who, as a rule, abandon their own troops and flee cowardly in mid-battle. Only to return with even more mercenaries ).

[Bumblebee]

Thanks for the suggestions all! I'll see what I can do about routing those Seleukians now

[Roka]

i don't really have anything new to add to be honest, i often find the best tactic against a phalanx is the hammer and anvil tactic of Alexandros, as a few others have mentioned

anyway, good luck and i hope you teach those Seleukians a lesson

i also hope you are still allied with the Ptolemaioi

[DaciaJC]

If you are in really desperate straits and dearly need those Koinon Hellonon phalangites, you can use a combination of add_population and process_cq to "accelerate" the passage of the March of Time.

[DaciaJC]

Oops, sorry. Delete this, please.

[Ullr]

Hi, this is my first post---like everyone here I am blown away by EB!! Thanks to the developers!!

On topic, I was going to post something similar about strategies for fighting the Arche Seleukia. I'm playing Baktria on campaign H/battle map M however, and so strategies may be quite different.

I was thrust into a war with AS too soon for my ruler's liking. The Seleukids were openly mocking my autonomy and our treaty by camping armies on the doorsteps of my cities---something had to be done!

As I could never match their vast numbers, I developed a hit and run strategy designed to thin their numbers using small mounted armies (Positioned so close to the Steppes, it is difficult not to adopt some of their tactics and recruit their fierce and master horsemen

Warning---micro-managing strategy ahead!!

Step 1: Now, you must have horse archers (as another poster recommended), so try to conquer a territory where you can build them.

Step 2: build a small army with four to six units of horse archers (preferably Dahae Riders!) and 2 medium cavalry and a couple skirmisher cavalry. Do not include a Family Member!

Step 3: Find AS armies and park your army just outside their movement territory, they'll come and get you in a season or two. Usually they will have some non phalanx units with them. Try to avoid ones with foot archers! In my game they don't use them too much. Surround the army. When attacking concentrate your fire on these non phalanx units (If they have any cavalry, decimate it). Bait them with your medium cavalry, and surround them. REMEMBER: Know where your withdrawal point is!!!! Don't get cornered or your unit is dead.

Step 4: When you run out of ammunition, withdraw. Do not engage in melee unless you are forced to or have the high ground on archer or skirmisher units, use the med cavalry for this. You will lose loads of battles, but the final head count will be something like: enemy killed 500 men lost 13. heh heh.

Also BEWARE OF MOVEMENT POINTS on the campaign map. Don't get trapped after losing a battle. It's best to leave this army somewhere elevated on the map and let the AS attack you. Always fight the battle the first time the enemy hits you or you can't withdraw during the battle.

If you are caught in a no withdrawal situation, after you exhaust your ammo, group your units in threes let the enemy run around and exhaust themselves and hit them from all sides (their general is priority of course) Your Dahae Riders have a 27 charge but don't keep them in melee. Rinse and repeat.
I've actually routed an AS army about 1000 strong composed of medium and elite phalanx, several elite infantry, elite skirmishers etc. with about 400 mixed dahae riders and Parthian HAs with 2 medium cavalry units. I lost 2/3rd but pulled out a heroic victory.
You will have silver and even gold chevron HAs and Med cavalry in a few years as well!


Sorry about the long post!! Hope it helps and good luck!

[Companion Cavalry]

I second the above, excellent strategy for holding off the Seleukids as Baktria. I have a few things to add:

Around 210 b.c. or so, you will get a very heavy bodyguard cavalry. Include 1 or 2 FMs in each horse-archer army, as when you are forced to fight in a melee
(without any arrows left and without the option to retreat) you need a good hammer with which to crush the remaining enemies against an anvil.


In practical terms, this boils down to bogging the enemy troops down in a melee with your horse-archers while your FMs, and Baktrioi Hippotoxotai if you have any,
charge them from behind. Later on, you can afford to have a unit or two or Hellenikoi Kataphraktoi so you don't have to use HA in melees.

[fleaza]

you talk as if micromanaging is a bad thing.

it seems as if the OP doesnt have steppe riders at his disposal right now so he would have to improvise. can we have a screeny so that i can better understand your situation? i want to know whats going on in your homeland and etc.

if you just dont have to resources to fight arche seleukeia you can always just retreat. they are usually overwhlemed by ptolemies, parthians, armenians and the pontic forces anyway so you can just wait a few years. build up a couple of stacks and then "bomb" their cities in asia minor and especially antioch

[Bumblebee]

Spoiler Alert, click show to read: 

This is the force I've been deploying with variations in multiple stacks for the past 40 years. This particular one has moved up the coast from where Jerusalem would've been and is now residing in Tarsos after having raided the cities between them. Tha phalanx has been a recent addition due to Centurio's recommendation. Success with this had been marginal I'm finding, but here it's a matter that I have limited access to the better phalanx units.

It's currently 216 BC and the bulk of my available forces are majority infantry based (spearmen/infantry) with some aright cavalry units. At the moment I have no recruitment center with phalanx units available. I have started to recruit some of the Toxotai Kreitoki to replace my standard Toxotai.

Spoiler Alert, click show to read: 

As one can see, I have control over just under half of Mesopotamia.

Spoiler Alert, click show to read: 

The Greek peninsula as I mentioned in my original post is under my command from Thermon/Demetrias on down. Makedon has been wiped out by Eiperos, which we both have an alliance that has been longlasting from me having fed them 500 gold a turn for the past 30 or so years. Ptolemai has broken our alliance is now also launching attacks on me, probably in course with some agreement with Arche Seleukia as they are no longer at war with each other. Pontos has also seen fit to get in on the action, but I suspect that is because they don't have anywhere else to really expand to at the moment except into me as I'm fighting the two other major powers in the area.

[Apraxiteles]

Hmm… If you can manage to take Mazaka, then the only way the Seleukids will be able to attack you is by crossing one of two rivers. You'd be pretty unassailable from the East if you put even mediocre garrisons at the two bridges. And if you can take Side from the Ptolemaioi, I guarentee you that you'll be able to get a ceasefire from them, as well. Advancing farther east, though, will require a lot of hard work.

PS: You've got about half of Anatolia. Mesopotamia is farther east, in what is modern Iraq, around Babylon and Seleukeia :)

[Cambyses]

#1 tip, develop MICS in halicarnassos and mytilene in order to be able to get decent troops to the front line quickly. The long trek from Athens (even by boat) just isnt worthwhile.
#2 tip, classical hoplites on guard mode are excellent at tying up an opponent's phalanx while you throw javelins/repeat charge into the rear. Try to isolate the phalanxes. If you are serious about breaking the phalnx you need at least 4 of your units on it. Anything less is just a holding mission...
#3 tip, make sure you are not the only enemny of the seleukids (same applies to ptolemaioi when you finish with the grey guys). If they have to send large armies to the other extreme of their empire as well, it makes your job a lot easier!

[Andronikos]

I am curently playing as Baktria and have no problems fighting the AS (M battle difficulty). Their forces consist mostly of phalangites, I use less phalangites and have more cavalry, skirmishers and assault infantry to do the killing.

But as KH you don't have any superheavy cavalry or cavalry archers, so you have to think up something else. Your army looks good, perhaps you can add some heavier cavalry (Thesalians or Hippeis Xystophoroi instead of Hippeis as Centurio mentioned). Use skirmishers to throw javelins into enemies back, perhaps hire some axemen from Kapadokia or Thrakian infantry to speed up the killing, heavier archers are good idea too. I prefer to have something to hunt FMs, they can turn the battle where they charge, medium cavalry combined with thureophoroi can do this job.

This reminds me those days when I fought phalanx based armies with Celts or Romans.

[Alien of Germania]

I played KH once and I had a blast for a while, but as it was my first campaign i dindt know what could happen regarding revolts. Helikarnassos revolted to my faction and I got an insta war with Ptoleis, Massalia revolted and other near revolted and I got war with Lusos and Arverni (galatians), one town in Sicilia revolted and I got insta war with Romani, and after that the ship went down. Prepare yourself for these crazy revolts and you are good. Otherwise, leave good stacks in all fronts.

[Centurio Nixalsverdrus]

1. Your Hoplites look pretty worn out, time to replenish them (merging, not retraining)!
2. Drop the artillery! Take Thraikioi Prodromoi instead!
3. Drop your Hippeis! Take Hippeis Xystophoroi instead!
4. Drop your Toxotai! Take Toxotai Kretikoi instead!
5. One or two units of Peltastai are enough! Take Sphendonetai Rhodioi instead!
6. Build up your forces so that you have four one-stack-armies!
7. Launch a preemptive strike against Pontos! Take Amaseia and Sinope and wipe them out!
8. Conquer the Crimea from the Sarmatae, you'll get a ceasefire with them afterwards!
9. Take Mazaka and Side!
10. Defend Kappadokia in the east, Kilikia at the rivers at Tarsos!
11. Occasionally raid Seleukid cities in the vicinity!
12. Conquer Kypros and make peace with the Ptolemaioi if possible!

Sorry for all the!!!!

[Cambyses]

Some people are advocating getting horse archers. While these are definitely worthwhile against the seleucids. i do question whether its worth the long wait you will have to get them to the front lines after reruitment. Personally, I would avoid the long march.

[king of thracia]

Some people are advocating getting horse archers. While these are definitely worthwhile against the seleucids. i do question whether its worth the long wait you will have to get them to the front lines after reruitment. Personally, I would avoid the long march.

Navy. All that needs to be done is land on the north coast and access the Seleukid highway network from Pontic territory, or even from Nikaia. If Pontus is at war, then even better - an excuse to take territory of vital strategic importance!

Most cultures have a limited area of recruitment; we will just have to work around it. Furthermore, I'm not a fan of the local trash troops; we're looking for a better way here. The inclusion of an effective cavalry arm can win battles with very few casualties. In saving lives and money, praise will be heaped on the king who had the foresight to take the bosphorus. One fully developed combined arms army will be sufficient to defeat and annihilate several Seleukid stacks such that there will not be such pressing need to spam troops. Still takes time to win the battles

[Bumblebee]

I'd love to get some horse archers in on the action, but at the moment I haven't the resources to go and get any. I suppose I could send a lone general up there to gather some horse archer mercenaries (are any available?), but most of them are so high up in management or are such fantastic generals that pulling them off the line will likely result in some serious losses. I suppose I could give up some ground and then regroup with the horse archers. I'm not sure how wise that would be though as it feels as though any swing one way or the other right now will dictate who'll own Anatolia (my bad Apraxiteles ).

The situation is very precarious at the moment.

[Bumblebee]

Aright, so what's been workin' out really well is some Thorakitai to hold the line, Distinguished Hoplites to watch the flanks/take on stray Seleukian elements, Kreitikoi Toxotai archers, Heavy Skirmishers for flanking/harassing purposes on the opposing phalanx, and Xystophori to charge and break up the formations.

Routing the enemy phalanx doesn't seem to be a 100% for the charging Xystophori/Skirmisher flank. But it's serving well enough that the Thorakitai holding the line hardly take any casualties while the phalanx is being chewed up by the the Xystophori or the free Hoplites.

[Apázlinemjó]

A cheap, but useful strategy against AI, if you station your mercenary phalangities(?) and hoplites on the bridge near to Mazaka and fight bridge battles. Tons of heroics and you can use your resources on the other fronts.