Store-Bought Indignant Protests

[ICantSpellDawg]

Isn't it amazing? Every day, the Left criticizes the Right for being angry maniacs - but the second they start protesting against something, "it couldn't possibly be organic, it must be corporate sponsored. The%2

[seireikhaan]

Uh... Perhaps some clarification is in order here?

[Megas Methuselah]

A link would be helpful...

[Marshal Murat]

Most of these links are from HuffPost or Drudge
Reid denounces protestors

The Republican Party says it's not behind the protests, but Reid scoffed at the notion that the protesters reflect grass-roots sentiment. He held up a piece of artificial turf during a session with reporters.

"These are nothing more than destructive efforts to interrupt a debate that we should have, and are having," Reid said. "They are doing this because they don't have any better ideas. They have no interest in letting the negotiators, even though few in number, negotiate. It's really simple: they're taking their cues from talk show hosts, Internet rumor-mongerers ... and insurance rackets."

Rowdy Crowd in Arkansas

Democratic representatives Mike Ross and Vic Snyder both came to Little Rock Wednesday to explain what changes could be coming. And Arkansans got a chance to sound off too. It was a loud crowd at Arkansas Children's Hospital and everybody had something to say.

Tempers in South Florida

Confrontation over a national healthcare overhaul reached South Florida on Wednesday, when routine office hours for the staff of a Broward-area congressman turned into a raucous protest.

The incident is like others that reflect nerves frayed by the nationwide debate. Democrats decry what they describe as a mob rule orchestrated by special interests trying to protect the status quo; Republicans call it genuine grass-roots concern over a costly government takeover.

Pelosi states that protesters are carrying swastikas.

Tampa Healthcare debate ends in scuffle.

Police officers were called to calm down an unruly crowd outside a health care reform town hall meeting in downtown Tampa, Florida on Thursday evening, according to local news reports.

Angry protesters screamed, yelled and banged on windows as officers hurried to guard the entrances to the facility, where U.S. Rep. Kathy Castor was trying to discuss the various health care reform proposals being debated in Congress. One photojournalist said that a fistfight broke out inside the building, reports WTSP.

HuffPost Editorial

Here's a breaking news alert for all Americans: if you take part in protest rallies, voice your discontent through picket signs, or disrupt events with yelling or intermittent shouts, then you are likely a right-wing extremist or a member of an angry mob, and you must be silenced.

TuffStuff is simply pointing out how the Democrats (Leftys despite a majority being right-handed) are not acknowledging this as a "grass-roots" movement and shifting the responsibility to "Insurance Corporations/Republicans"
All of these disruptions are being characterized one of two ways.
Democrats - These are bought mobs (astroturf) by Republicans and Insurance Companies that are stirring up people and stifling democratic debate.

Republicans - These are grass-root movements against a socialized healthcare system that we had nothing to do with.

[ICantSpellDawg]

TuffStuff is simply pointing out how the Democrats (Leftys despite a majority being right-handed) are not acknowledging this as a "grass-roots" movement and shifting the responsibility to "Insurance Corporations/Republicans"
All of these disruptions are being characterized one of two ways.
Democrats - These are bought mobs (astroturf) by Republicans and Insurance Companies that are stirring up people and stifling democratic debate.

Republicans - These are grass-root movements against a socialized healthcare system that we had nothing to do with.

Thanks for the ground work.

I'm just wondering what seems more likely to you all; that we can't muster the indignation on our own for something of this magnitude or that we are merely puppets, yet again. Democrats don't actually believe that people have different opions. Any time they encounter a strong and different opinion they convince themselves that there is just some centrally controlled capitalist mothership behind it all.

Or they are lying to us and are really just trying to deflect from their own failure to create a new new deal that has majority support.

[Marshal Murat]

I honestly couldn't say, since I haven't really met anyone whose been involved. It sounds exactly like the frustration that one heard during the Election Campaign (Joe the Plumber), an unresponsive government that ignored the "Average Joe".

I think that it's easier for the Democrats to demonize the Republicans than to build a "Healthcare Platform" and then have to endure rhetorical assaults. The possibility that there may be some "bought actors" who are simply directing popular unrest against legislators.

[ICantSpellDawg]

I honestly couldn't say, since I haven't really met anyone whose been involved. It sounds exactly like the frustration that one heard during the Election Campaign (Joe the Plumber), an unresponsive government that ignored the "Average Joe".

I think that it's easier for the Democrats to demonize the Republicans than to build a "Healthcare Platform" and then have to endure rhetorical assaults. The possibility that there may be some "bought actors" who are simply directing popular unrest against legislators.

Imagine what the elderly, who have killed people for less in the great war, are thinking right now. I'm sure that some are hired - but some people at leftist rallies are Communists and Anarchists. That doesn't mean that many of the concerns aren't legitimate.

I hope that Obama continues to recklessly overplay his hand and that there is tremendous backlash. 4 years of a dandy wast of time would be a relief. Lets get back to business, not this time-of-the-month bleedout we are going through under this administration.

[Banquo's Ghost]

As is touched upon in the Centrist thread, yah-boo politics is all the range for all sides - and this is unfortunately true of most Western democracies. Instead of taking a stand against it, we the voters indulge ourselves as if our democracy is a substitute for televised wrestling.

After eight years of "if you don't believe in trampling human rights, you're a terrorist" we now have the Democrat's version of demonisation.

We do so love our tribalism.

[drone]

It's all a vast, right-wing conspiracy...

[ICantSpellDawg]

It's all a vast, right-wing conspiracy...

Yes it is, but almost half of the country is in on it.

[a completely inoffensive name]

The Democrats are right, this isn't a grass roots movement just like the Tea Parties earlier. Like always instead of actually coming up with a better solution to the problem that fits their ideology they dive deeper into emotional calls, slander and loud means right tactics.

Don't get me wrong, I think having a public option is unnecessary and I personally believe the problem is a misunderstanding that what we have now is not a free market, but more along the lines of corporatism and so people lash out wrongly at the free market and turn to government instead.

But what do the Republicans do, admit that the people need to be given more power in the health care market and that insurance companies need some major reform so they can't deny those without money or are sick? No, they prop up a fake grassroots movement and proudly carry out their ignorance and corruption and completely ignore the fact that 70% of Americans actually want reform and insist that the status quo is just fine.

The Republicans are reaping what they sow, they have no intellect within their ranks anymore, just talking points and loudness and if they can't defend their ideals with facts or come up with solutions to major problems then they force upon the American people to either continue to set back their status among the world or engage a massive backlash from the American public or a retaliation from Democrats and Liberals and pass the public option with super speed.

If you want to stop public health care, don't infiltrate town meetings overriding the majority screaming Republican slogans and ignorant sayings, ("Keep government out of my Medicare!") and instead rally around a guy who actually agrees with the majority of Americans that reform is needed but instead wants to go in the other direction, like Peter Schiff.

I tried to find a good video of Peter Schiff on health care but so far the only real interview was on the 6th with a host who kept cutting him off mid sentence to yell at him some more during the entire interview but nevertheless you still get the gist of what he is saying. Here it is anyway:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gRJ1oyhTZAQ

tl;dr Republicans need to stop fake grassroots efforts, stop defending the status quo, stop yelling and stop playing us (good) vs them (evil) and instead rally around a guy who is in touch with what Americans want and has an actual solution to the problem that Republicans can propose.

[a completely inoffensive name]

I do not, however, condone the mob behaviour the right is exhibiting here. The Right has historically been the more civil of the two political wings of this country.

Not since the 80's.

[Marshal Murat]

I have to say after thinking about it, most of these protests seem to be the "real deals" for me, if only because I can empathize with those protesting. These protesters sometimes seem those who would most benefit from any healthcare reform, yet they're acting up against this bill? The Democrats say "corporate bought-mobs" who are ravaging the American Town-Hall.

I say it's people who feel under- or mis-represented by their government, people who are frustrated with a political process that hasn't replied to their needs or when the government has replied it has been inept and ineffective. Taking a list of polls from Real Clear Politics, a majority of Americans disapprove of the job Congress is doing. Another RCP Poll list identifies how a slight majority disapproves of where this country is going.

Combining a mistrust of the Legislative Branch who hasn't really helped this process at all by leaving many Americans in the dark (unless you hear something fishy) with a sense that this country is headed on the wrong track; you get opposition to almost any widespread reform of the system. While the Republicans can no doubt elucidate their opposition better with another plan, it's far easier and expends less political capital when the Democrats explode with paranoid "well-dressed protesters", "swastika carrying", "astro-turf" accusations that sound ridiculous and haven't been confirmed yet. If the Democrats can catch an astro-turfer, then the Republicans will die very quickly.

Until then, this stuff is real anger and frustration at a political system that many Americans don't trust and one that seems to be heading down the wrong course.

Edit- The Republicans also have very little incentive to come up with an "alternate plan", simply because the Democrats will destroy the Bill in birth and ridicule the attempt and deflect attention away from their bill, and not contribute to the real attempt at healthcare reform which is so difficult right now.

[Lemur]

I do not, however, condone the mob behaviour the right is exhibiting here.

In fairness, it's not as though everyone in the nation who considers themselves "right" is involved with these town hall protests. It's more of a vocal and outraged minority.

But you make a good point; if the "right" allows itself to be painted as yelling instead of talking there could be bad consequences for the Republicans as a whole. This is all strangely reminiscent of where the "left" and the Dems went in the 1970s. Convinced of their moral and ideological superiority, the left allowed some pretty extreme people to do as they liked without much pushback from the party (Black Panthers, campus protesters, everything-protesters, etc.) and as a result the Dems were tarred for decades as the party that tolerated and encourage extremist ideologues.

A similar dynamic could play out here. Not saying it will, and not saying the two situations are exact analogies, but some of the parallels are striking.

[a completely inoffensive name]

If the Democrats can catch an astro-turfer, then the Republicans will die very quickly.

They did: http://tpmdc.talkingpointsmemo.com/2...al.php?ref=fpa

Edit- The Republicans also have very little incentive to come up with an "alternate plan", simply because the Democrats will destroy the Bill in birth and ridicule the attempt and deflect attention away from their bill, and not contribute to the real attempt at healthcare reform which is so difficult right now.

They have little incentive for their current constituents who are crazy birthers.

It would actually be great for them politically in the big picture. They introduce a comprehensive plan to fix health care, they can now claim they are no longer defending the status quo and wish to make health care affordable to 47 million Americans. The Democrats shoot it down quickly, the Republicans if they play their cards right can now accuse the Democrats of playing politics instead of actually trying to solve the current crisis. There have been much, much greater comebacks then that, all they really need is to rally around a guy with such a plan then get working with a good PR man.

[ICantSpellDawg]

In fairness, it's not as though everyone in the nation who considers themselves "right" is involved with these town hall protests. It's more of a vocal and outraged minority.

But you make a good point; if the "right" allows itself to be painted as yelling instead of talking there could be bad consequences for the Republicans as a whole. This is all strangely reminiscent of where the "left" and the Dems went in the 1970s. Convinced of their moral and ideological superiority, the left allowed some pretty extreme people to do as they liked without much pushback from the party (Black Panthers, campus protesters, everything-protesters, etc.) and as a result the Dems were tarred for decades as the party that tolerated and encourage extremist ideologues.

A similar dynamic could play out here. Not saying it will, and not saying the two situations are exact analogies, but some of the parallels are striking.

To be honest, though, the only things that Republicans could do to not move further down the hole in your estimation is to become Democrats, right? It a tough call. Your prescription is suicide.

[Xiahou]

Whether you call them grassroots or astroturf, Gallup polling suggests that the Democrat effort to paint them as un-American nazis isn't working.

The raucous protests at congressional town hall meetings have succeeded in fueling opposition to proposed health care bills among some Americans, a USA TODAY/Gallup Poll finds — particularly the independents who tend to be at the center of political debates.

In a survey of 1,000 adults taken Tuesday, 34% say the sometimes heated protests at sessions held by members of Congress have made them more sympathetic to the protesters' views; 21% say they are less sympathetic.

Independents by 2-1, 35%-16%, say they are more sympathetic to the protesters now.

[a completely inoffensive name]

Well that's good disinformation at work for ya.

[Louis VI the Fat]

After eight years of "if you don't believe in trampling human rights, you're a terrorist" we now have the Democrat's version of demonisation.

But there really is an astroturf* anti-healthcare reform movement. See, for example, the infamous 'Americans for Prosperity'. This very well-funded group is doing to healthcare debate what it has previously done for global warming and labour: stifle debate, shout and yell, create outrage, spread alarmist misinformation.

http://www.sourcewatch.org/index.php...for_Prosperity: 'Healthcare reform is the holocaust'.


The average Republican is allergic to government interference. Likewise in healthcare. A lot of the opposition is genuine, sincere, so much is true.

Healthcare reform, however, is an excruciatingly difficult subject. Few people (not me either) understand the ins-and-outs. A lot of people are protesting what they don't understand. For example, there currently is little to no free market in healthcare. What there does is, is bureaucracy, protected monopolies, paper-pushing, no choice for consumers. All of which protected by government. Which does not strike me as particularly representative of conservative values, and certainly not worthy of protecting against 'government intrusion'. It is, however, what industry and the GOP are trying to sell to American families as 'market', 'freedom' and 'in your best interest'. Meanwhile, these families can not get decent and affordable healthcare coverage like the entire rest of the free world.


*I love that word. Genius.

[Major Robert Dump]

My grandma survived the death panel and all she got was some stupid cookies.

[Lemur]

Former health insurance exec speaks out:

A former health insurance executive says the disruptions taking place at lawmakers' town halls around the country are the result of stealth efforts by health insurance companies.

Wendell Potter, a former CIGNA vice president, detailed what he said were past covert efforts by the industry. [...] "When you hear someone complaining about traveling down a 'slippery slope to socialism,' some insurance flack, like I used to be, wrote that," Potter added.

Potter said during his 20 years in the insurance business, the industry would funnel money to large public firms who would create front groups and find friendly voices in conservative media.

In particular, he cited front groups created to fight "Patients' Bill of Rights" legislation in the 1990s, as well as a campaign to discredit the Michael Moore film "Sicko," which harshly criticized the industry. [...]

A health insurance trade group, America's Health Insurance Plans (AHIP), sent a letter to congressional leaders earlier this week stating support for "bipartisan health reform" and denying any role in fomenting disruptions at meetings.

[ICantSpellDawg]

Former health insurance exec speaks out:

A former health insurance executive says the disruptions taking place at lawmakers' town halls around the country are the result of stealth efforts by health insurance companies.

Wendell Potter, a former CIGNA vice president, detailed what he said were past covert efforts by the industry. [...] "When you hear someone complaining about traveling down a 'slippery slope to socialism,' some insurance flack, like I used to be, wrote that," Potter added.

Potter said during his 20 years in the insurance business, the industry would funnel money to large public firms who would create front groups and find friendly voices in conservative media.

In particular, he cited front groups created to fight "Patients' Bill of Rights" legislation in the 1990s, as well as a campaign to discredit the Michael Moore film "Sicko," which harshly criticized the industry. [...]

A health insurance trade group, America's Health Insurance Plans (AHIP), sent a letter to congressional leaders earlier this week stating support for "bipartisan health reform" and denying any role in fomenting disruptions at meetings.

Again, do you deny that some people are legitimately pissed about this? Did you blame Communists and anarchists for front protests of the War in Iraq or everything else the Bush Admin did?

The reality is that there is nothing capitalist about monopolistically obfuscating health care costs and obliterating price lowering competition. Health Insurance needs to be reformed as sure as youre born, but the way in which people are doing it is wrong. I don't want Democrats tackling this themselves - they will compound the problem. I also don't want Republicans to do it themselves because they will screw it as well. A Gesture of Good will would be to provide a bigger Republican voice in the process then we might even deserve.

Cost is primary. As long as consumers dictate pricing the system will work. If they don't (as they don't now) the problem will get worse. Democrats don't get this - Republicans have the benefit of being powerless observers and are starting to get it as a matter of survival.

The table needs to be equal. Strong, untainted GOP leadership is needed to wash away the illegitimate blocking tactics and provide balance. They need to show the american people that some Republicans are beign listened to. Lindsay Graham, Paul Ryan and numerous others are just waiting for an outstretched hand.

[Lemur]

Again, do you deny that some people are legitimately pissed about this?

I think most of them are pissed they lost the White House to a negro. Others have been whipped up on misinformation and demagoguery from Glenn Beck and Rush Limbaugh. Here's an important read from conervative economist Bruce Bartlett (the entire article is a must-read):

Budget experts have known for years that Medicare was on an unsustainable financial path. It is impossible to pay all the benefits that have been promised because spending has been rising faster than GDP.

In 2003, the Bush administration repeatedly lied about the cost of the drug benefit to get it passed, and Bush himself heavily pressured reluctant conservatives to vote for the program.

Because reforming Medicare is an important part of getting health costs under control generally, Bush could have used the opportunity to develop a comprehensive health-reform plan. By not doing so, he left his party with nothing to offer as an alternative to the Obama plan. Instead, Republicans have opposed Obama's initiative while proposing nothing themselves.

In my opinion, conservative activists, who seem to believe that the louder they shout the more correct their beliefs must be, are less angry about Obama’s policies than they are about having lost the White House in 2008. They are primarily Republican Party hacks trying to overturn the election results, not representatives of a true grassroots revolt against liberal policies. If that were the case they would have been out demonstrating against the Medicare drug benefit, the Sarbanes-Oxley bill, and all the pork-barrel spending that Bush refused to veto.

Until conservatives once again hold Republicans to the same standard they hold Democrats, they will have no credibility and deserve no respect. They can start building some by admitting to themselves that Bush caused many of the problems they are protesting.

[Xiahou]

I think most of them are pissed they lost the White House to a negro.

Wow, that's classy. Most people upset by the healthcare reform proposal are racist- what a great generalization. You should be ashamed of yourself.

If you're not making sweeping racism charges against a large group of people, I'd love to hear exactly what you meant.

[Whacker]

Lemur and Xiahou are what make the backroom worth reading once in a blue moon.

[Lemur]

Xiahou, where were these angry mobs when GWB passed Medicare Part D? Where were they when the $700 billion TARP program was rammed through Congress? Where were they when the CBO predicted a $1.2 trillion deficit before BHO enacted a single policy?

Where were they when Federal spending as a percentage of GDP rose from 18.4 to 20.9? Where was all of this indignation?

Honestly, I think there's a class of people who see the country's racial complexion changing, and it freaks them out. 'Cause on the issues they simply don't have grounds to be as angry as their screaming makes them out to be.

So yeah, there's a racial dimension. I wouldn't call them racists, though. But none of these people took to the streets or screamed at their representatives when far more liberty-robbing events than health care reform took place.

Let's hear your theory: Why the anger now and not previously? Is this just another case of It's okay to do it if you're a Republican?

-edit-

P.S.: Anyone who disagrees with me is going to get turned into Soylent Green when they come in front of my Death Panel.

[Xiahou]

I complained about Medicare part D- and I know I wasn't alone. Even more people were livid over TARP. People's anger over government excess has been snowballing for a long time. And, unlike you, I'm not going to try to attribute all of people's outrage to one or two specific things. Some don't like the plan on it's merits, some are upset that it'll further spike our deficit, some are nuts (there's always a few) and many are upset by a combination of reasons. Protests and anger over government spending have been growing for years. The deficit this year is quadruple what it was last year. If people were uneasy before, how do you think they'd feel now?

But no, it's so much easier for you to say that A)Most of them don't like negroes or B) Those that don't hate blacks are just stupid and being duped into opposition. I'm sure that lumping everyone who is opposed to it into a nice little stereotype makes it so much easier for you to dismiss them. Pathetic.

Which am I, Lemur? I don't like the healthcare reform plans. Is it because I don't like a negro being in the Whitehouse or because I'm too dumb to know what's good for me? It's gotta be one or the other, you said so.

[Lemur]

Well, there is a strong nativist theme with the protesters, sorry. It was even stronger with the Birthers.

We've had federal overspending, overreaching and information grabbing on an epic scale for eight years. But suddenly a negro is president and it's time to bring the guns and scream in our representatives' faces.

Yup, must be a coincidence.

(P.S.: When protester after protester screams about how they're losing "their" America, what do you suppose they're talking about? Physician reimbursement schedules? Rural clinic access provisions?)

-edit-

In response to your edit: Xiahou, I seriously doubt you're attending town hall meetings in PA, screaming at the top of your lungs and declaring that the tree of liberty must be watered with the blood of tyrants. So as the courts would say, you have no standing.

If you're trying to say that I'm saying anyone who's dissatisfied with the five current healthcare reform bills is a racist or misled, well, epic reading comprehension fail. We are discussing people who try to shout down their representatives at town meetings, not policy wonks or Backroom contributors.

[Crazed Rabbit]

You ever heard of the 'straw that breaks the camel's back' Lemur?

As for suggesting a majority of these protestors are protesting because Obama is black - that's beyond preposterous.

CR

[Xiahou]

We've had federal overspending, overreaching and information grabbing on an epic scale for eight years.

If it was on an epic scale before, what is it now when it has quadrupled, hmmm?

(P.S.: When protester after protester screams about how they're losing "their" America, what do you suppose they're talking about? Physician reimbursement schedules?)

It speaks volumes to you mindset if the first thing you attribute that to is racism. Do you think that people could have other visions of "their" America besides just a white one? Why is it Obama supporters, like yourself, who are always the ones to drag race into everything he does. Do you think some people were harder on Clinton for things that Bush Sr did as well? I've already explained how average people could have a growing sense of outrage over government excess, so let's set them aside and look at the worst sort of partisan hacks. Are there people out there who would give a Republican a pass for something and bash a Democrat for the same thing? Of course there are, I've heard them do it. But I have no idea how you get off attributing "most" people's anger to racism. We've really moved forward in electing a black president haven't we? Before, you'd have to defend a policy on its merit. Now, you can just call opponents racist. Good thing for the post-racial presidency.

In response to your edit: Xiahou, I seriously doubt you're attending town hall meetings in PA, screaming at the top of your lungs and declaring that the tree of liberty must be watered with the blood of tyrants. So as the courts would say, you have no standing.

The excerpt you quoted said people "Again, do you deny that some people are legitimately pissed about this?"

There was no mention of screaming protesters at rallies in the selection you quoted nor in your response. Many people who are "pissed" protest respectfully, many of us, like myself, don't even go. But we're still upset or "pissed" about what our government is trying to force on us. You glibly dismissed us all as racists(most) or suckers(the rest).

If you're trying to say that I'm saying anyone who's dissatisfied with the five current healthcare reform bills is a racist or misled, well, epic reading comprehension fail. We are discussing people who try to shout down their representatives at town meetings, not policy wonks or Backroom contributors.

More like epic posting fail. I read what you typed. Nothing more or less. If you mean something other than what you type, maybe you should type that instead.

Edit: Even had you said that the protesters are either racists or stupid, that alone would be patently offensive, but at least you would have left me out of your insults.