And if thou gaze long into an abyss, the abyss will also gaze into thee

[Banquo's Ghost]

This is related to, but separate from, the discussion on Israel and Palestine. Mainly because I think it deserves a discussion in a wider sense than the politics, and applies to other prolonged conflicts.

This article examines concerns about the vastly increasing brutalisation of Israeli society with an unspoken but clear connection to the treatment of Palestinians. It describes inhuman responses that I have observed during the Troubles in Northern Ireland as violence soaked into the collective psyche.

For generations, Jews were considered a people that sanctified nonviolence in interhuman relations and lived by the the "law of the land." Our ancestors relied on God, but the modern-day Orthodox place less reliance on Him; they have fewer expectations of their prayers being answered. Instead - and it makes no difference whether we are talking about the Zionist ultra-Orthodox people from the illegal West Bank outposts or the non-Zionist ultra-Orthodox ones from the Mea She'arim outpost - they do exactly as they please. A time traveler from the past would ask himself: These are Jews?

This is the trend that one refers to when other human beings are demonised and denied their rights. This is why it is always in our interests in civilised countries to apply the highest standards of rights to others, no matter their provocations, because the danger exists that we become monsters in our turn - and the evil wins.

I am aware that is not however, a universal opinion in a community where we have even had apologists for torture. I would be interested in those other opinions, and what safeguards might be proposed to prevent a plummet into the abyss.

[Hooahguy]

were talking about the ultra-orthodox, right?
give it up BG. we'll never understand them.

get this:
on the sabbath it is forbidden to throw a rock. but yet the ultras manage to get around that rule by "stetting aside" a rock before the sabbath to use on the sabbath.

[Vladimir]

"If you see a car weaving from lane to lane on some highway overseas, you know it's an Israeli," a friend once told me. "And I've learned the hard way that, in the blink of an eye, you can become embroiled in a brawl in the middle of a highway here."

Can't argue with that logic.

The English jurist William Blackstone once said that the law reaches no further than the end of a club. Unfortunately, our law enforcement agencies have not managed to come to grips with the scope of Israeli crime. Only one out of every 100 thieves is indicted, due to the difficulties of obtaining evidence, and it is no wonder that 60 percent of all crimes - including sex crimes and violent crimes - are never even reported to the police.

Wait. Are we talking about Israel or Venezuela?

The ready availability of weapons in a country where the entire nation is in the army has turned us into a violent society. It was truly unbelievable to see a soldier shooting a bound Palestinian in the leg while his commander held the man down. Or to see border policemen freely abusing residents of the territories. Such mutations have left us shameless and utterly without inhibition.

End the Swiss oppression of the Palestinian people!

The ready availability of handguns in Washington DC has turned this place into a crime ridden cesspool.


People see what they want. I recently read criticism that the Israeli people are becoming more passive and are risking their security.

What the author means to say is: Get off my lawn!

[Hooahguy]

well said vladimir.

if i understand correctly, the argument is that israel has become a more violent society.
my answer: name me a society, when majorly urbanized, hasent become more violent. my bet is that early christians werent violent at all when they were a minority, but when they became majority in urban areas, you have crime. its natural.
the author has a flawed argument.
first off, back in the times of the temples there was crime, like rape and murder and the usual. we dont know if it was commonplace or not, due to the times. so to say we are more violent than ever before is a risky thing to say.
next, jews, until israel, had no cities like tel aviv that jews were the majority. in eastern europe, jews were in small villages, which made crime pretty unlikely because everyone knew everyone else.
so basically my thought is that the more urban a society gets, the more crime it does.

BG, im not sure what you wanted out of this article. are we discussing how violent israelis are? well, you cant judge all israelis from a few bad ones. its like islam. 99% of muslims are good and peace loving people. the 1% are the bad ones.
same case here.

[miotas]

my bet is that early christians werent violent at all when they were a minority, but when they became majority in urban areas, you have crime. its natural.

I think I remember reading somewhere that when Christianity was just getting started, and still a rather small group, they were banned from the city of Rome because they wouldn't get on with all the other religions and kept starting riots.

[Fragony]

And if you look to much into the problem you become the problem. There is NO way out of this, Palestina will never exist, they don't even want it so why would they make an effort to make it work, they want to kill jews wherever they find them it is really as simple as that, this is religious intolerance, simple as that.

[Tribesman]

Hmmmmm....

"I fear very much that the Jews are like all underdogs. When they get on top they are just as intolerant and cruel as the people were to them when they were underneath. I regret this situation very much because my sympathy has always been on their side."

[Hooahguy]

Hmmmmm....

human nature.

all this has nothing to do with israelis in particular. its human nature.