Store-Bought Indignant Protests

[Lemur]

You ever heard of the 'straw that breaks the camel's back' Lemur?

Yeah, and it's funny how the straw happens to be a Democratic administration. I seem to remember people getting freaked out and ready for revolution under Clinton as well. Bit of a pattern there ...

As for suggesting a majority of these protestors are protesting because Obama is black - that's beyond preposterous.

Right, 'cause nativism has never been a force in American politics. Absurd! Ridiculous!

-edit-

Cross-posted with you there, Xiahou.

Since the subject of the thread is protests, and since we have been exclusively discussing the raucous town halls, I thought it was obvious that I was talking about the protesters. I also mentioned the word "protesters" in every response to your high dudgeon responses. However, if you want to warm yourself on a hot coal of outrage and injured pride, be my guest. I was talking about the protesters who have been in the news and on the YouTubes. You clearly are ready to take offense on behalf of all mankind.

And yeah, I do think there is a racial component to their outrage. If that honks you off, then you shall be very, very honked off.

[Hosakawa Tito]

Some of our politicians had better back off the jokes on lynching and doing violence to their ideological opponents before some nutjob in the crowd decides that's the "green light" and acts on it.

[Xiahou]

Since the subject of the thread is protests, and since we have been exclusively discussing the raucous town halls, I thought it was obvious that I was talking about the protesters. I also mentioned the word "protesters" in every response to your high dudgeon responses. However, if you want to warm yourself on a hot coal of outrage and injured pride, be my guest. I was talking about the protesters who have been in the news and on the YouTubes. You clearly are ready to take offense on behalf of all mankind.

I see, when you said that people who are pissed about healthcare reform are mostly just pissed because they don't like a negro in the White House. And when you said "most" you really meant that there's just a racial component. It's my fault for reading what you typed and taking offense instead of knowing that you really meant to say "I think there's a racist component to some of the protests". That's big of you Lemur, really.....

Some of our politicians had better back off the jokes on lynching and doing violence to their ideological opponents before some nutjob in the crowd decides that's the "green light" and acts on it.

Yeah, somehow I don't think it's likely we'll be seeing an angry mob lynching Pelosi or any other member of congress at the behest of a politician.

[Lemur]

It appears your difficulties are not limited to posting broken links.

Yes, I think most of the protesters are deeply disturbed that an "other" class person has taken the White House. I doubt that Obama's specific race is the problem; he could just as easily be Latino or Polynesian to provoke the same gut-level distress. So yeah, there's a racial dimension that looks like nativism (this land is my land, this land ain't your land), not racism.

None of this is inconsistent, and despite your attempt to show me as backtracking, I am not.

What do you think the protesters mean when they scream about losing "our" America? Seriously, what do you imagine they really mean? 'Cause their vehemence and outrage seems way out of proportion with the level of change being proposed.

Yeah, somehow I don't think it's likely we'll be seeing an angry mob lynching Pelosi or any other member of congress at the behest of a politician.

I would love to see how you would react if an angry liberal screamed in the face of a Republican representative and then dropped a loaded gun on the ground.

“Yelling and screaming is counterproductive,” [Arizona congresswoman Gabrielle Giffords (D)] told the Sierra Vista Herald at a Congress on Your Corner event last week. There, one visitor dropped a gun at the meet n’ greet held in a Douglas Safeway, her staff says. That has aides, who called police to the event, concerned for her safety.

“We have never felt the need before to notify law enforcement when we hold these events,” said spokesman C.J. Karamargin.

This sort of thing should give you an idea of how enraged (and hilarious) these protesters can be:

[Louis VI the Fat]

http://patientsunitednow.com/?q=events. <- industry sponsored astroturf movement:
'Bring your family and friends out on the Patients United Now Tour and make sure your voice is heard against policies that will lead to a Washington takeover of your family’s health care, and support real health care choices for every American.'


If the healthcare industry sponsors expensive movements against this bill - what's more: are going at the proposals with all guns blazing - then apparantly the proposals managed to hit the bulls eye in trying to cut down on some very profitable industry practices.

[Louis VI the Fat]

What do you think the protesters mean when they scream about losing "our" America? Seriously, what do you imagine they really mean? 'Cause their vehemence and outrage seems way out of proportion with the level of change being proposed.

Yes, there is a racial dimension. This much is true.

There is also a partisan dimension to the outrage. It never ceases to amaze the foreigner to what extent American political partisanship is aggressive, alarmist, omgtheendoftheworld-ish. The other side 'must be' terrorists, communists, racists, 'or how else to explain their perfidious scheme to destroy America and all it stands for'.


The second thing that strikes the foreign visitor, is that one could walk into any nice middle-class suburb. Anywhere in America. One house has a little porch, a basketball hoop over the garage door, the most ornate Christmas lightshow in the street. The house next door looks different, yet so very the same. It has the street's finest Halloween decorations, kids play soccer on the lawn, the garage door is open, showing the father's tools and fishing gear on the walls. Both house the same sort of family, with the same education, their kids go to the same highschool, each attends church on Sunday.
Yet, one is Republican, the other Democrat. The first thinks the Clintons will turn America into a dictatorship, that they wil stop at nothing to gain power. The second thinks that Bush is the anti-Christ, possible a manchurian candidate. Which is what the first thinks about Obama.

In other countries with extreme political polarization, at least political affiliation is tied to class, or race, or religion, or region. You can tell a person's affiliation from a mile away. To a large extent, this is not the case in America.
The good news about that is that this stabilises America, keeps it together. The 'other side' does not have a distinct 'face'. The bad news is that it shows the utter lack of moderation, of soberness of mind, of contemplative reflection, in American political debate.

America must necessarily be a moderate, middle-class country for it to function. This is what America is at heart, what is at the core of its succes. Yet, this very aspect is undermined by political partisanship. That is a centripedal force. It forces people into groups, with distinct cultures, with culture wars. Moderation, recognising your neighbour as 'one of your own', is lost.



Quite apart from their impact on healthcare reform - and nicely tying in all of the above and page two of this thread -it is this very polarizing effect of astroturf movements and other political hackery that undermines America. When politics is reduced to shouting and yelling and alarmist misinformation, @@@@@@* is what you end up with.
*I would name some other countries here, but don't want to sound disparaging to possible members.

[Xiahou]

What do you think the protesters mean when they scream about losing "our" America? Seriously, what do you imagine they really mean? 'Cause their vehemence and outrage seems way out of proportion with the level of change being proposed.

You can't think of anything else? Seriously? What did Democrats mean when they said they wanted to "take back America"? What minority group did they think had seized control of America? Dirty bunch of nativists!

Yes, I think most of the protesters are deeply disturbed that an "other" class person has taken the White House. I doubt that Obama's specific race is the problem; he could just as easily be Latino or Polynesian to provoke the same gut-level distress. So yeah, there's a racial dimension that looks like nativism (this land is my land, this land ain't your land), not racism.

Ok, so you did mean to make an offensive generalization. I'm glad we're finally clear on that much. By the way, most Obama supporters are misogynists. Most of them were deeply disturbed that a woman- Hillary or Palin might have gotten into the White House.

[Lemur]

You can't think of anything else? Seriously? What did Democrats mean when they said they wanted to "take back America"?

If democrats had been screaming it at the top of their lungs and preventing any dialogue by shouting down town meetings, I'd want to know. As it is, you're equating the empty slogans of election time with the red-faced mantra of the town hall protesters. Both "Ready to lead on day one" and "White power!" are slogans, but they're hardly equitable or convertible.

When a politician says, "It's time to take back America," we all know it's time to take a nap. When a screaming protester froths that he's "losing my America!" while jamming himself into the face of an elected Congresscritter, something else is at play. I've yet to hear you even begin to answer what that might be.

And I'm sure the birther/teabagger who painted a swastika on a black congressman's sign was, um, making a philosophical point about national socialism. Nothing racial there, nope.

Good points as per usual, Louis.

-edit-

Also, unless you plan to bring a gun to a town hall meeting and scream in the face of a representative or senator, I don't see why you insist on lumping yourself in with these loons, Xiahou. I mean, if you absolutely must take offense, nothing's going to stop you, but in the process you're equating yourself with the worst sorts of crazies. Doesn't reflect well on you. This thread is about the protesters. You did read the title and the rest of the thread, correct?

[Xiahou]

If democrats had been screaming it at the top of their lungs and preventing any dialogue by shouting down town meetings, I'd want to know. As it is, you're equating the empty slogans of election time with the red-faced mantra of the town hall protesters. Both "Ready to lead on day one" and "White power!" are slogans, but they're hardly equitable or convertible.

When a politician says, "It's time to take back America," we all know it's time to take a nap. When a screaming protester froths that he's "losing my America!" while jamming himself into the face of an elected Congresscritter, something else is at play. I've yet to hear you even begin to answer what that might be.

So you seriously believe that Democrat groups have never shut down events before? No union thugs have ever tried to make a scene at a function? Anti-war protesters have never tried to shout down others instead of debating?

I kept asking you to engage in a little critical thinking and just try to think of what else they could mean by "we're losing our America". See, when I hear people yell that to Arlen Specter, I think they're probably worried about the growth of government and worried how a government run healthcare program might change their lives. Apparently, when you see them yelling that to a white "congresscritter" it's because they don't want a negro in the White House. That you immediately assume that and cannot even think of another possible alternative doesn't reflect well on you, Lemur.

Also, unless you plan to bring a gun to a town hall meeting and scream in the face of a representative or senator, I don't see why you insist on lumping yourself in with these loons, Xiahou. I mean, if you absolutely must take offense, nothing's going to stop you, but in the process you're equating yourself with the worst sorts of crazies. Doesn't reflect well on you. This thread is about the protesters. You did read the title and the rest of the thread, correct?

We've already been through this. TSM, asked you if you would believe that some people could be legitimately upset over the proposed reform, you replied that most of them don't like a negro in the White House. TSM did not say "some protesters", he said "some people". Then when someone takes what you wrote at face value, you pretend to be the aggrieved party. You've since explained yourself- I get what you mean. I'm not a protester, and it wasn't aimed at me. It's still a generalization and it's still offensive to any non-"nativist" protester, which I have no doubt includes most of them. You have no statistics or data to support your attack- just your own bigoted views of them.

[Louis VI the Fat]

Good points as per usual, Louis.

Why, thank you.


For good measure, I added in a subtle side-remark:
'The other side 'must be' terrorists, communists, racists, 'or how else to explain their etcetera'

Even if there is nativity, or racism, - and yes, both are visibly there - I think a lot of the behaviour of the more outraged protesters can be explained by extremities of partisanship and by lack of sober moderation in political discourse. Clinton wasn't Black*, yet his presidency managed to create eight years of outrage. In a different manner, so did the presidencies of Bush and Reagan.


*No, he was not 'The first Black president', even if he liked to portray himself as such.

[ICantSpellDawg]

Great arguements, guys. None of them are in any way absurd.

I'm no friend of insurance companies. The way that they manipulate Health care costsand premiums has become a burden on all of our backs, but the hackneyed plan we have on our front door setting up shop in our living room is not our friend. I support Republicans for health care reform and I would like to see someone gouge the INS companies as the monopolies they are

But I do believe that private insurance can work in our favor if we find the right balance. The right balance has nothing to do with nationalized health care.

[Lemur]

So you seriously believe that Democrat groups have never shut down events before?

If you weren't able to reach for a tu quoque argument, would you have anything to say on this subject?

I think they're probably worried about the growth of government and worried how a government run healthcare program might change their lives.

Yes, and it got more urgent and vitriolic all of a sudden, right when the "conservatives" lost their golden boy, and a dusky Moor swept into power. Fascinating, yes? Louis is right, a lot of this is raw partisanship, but the anger and distress of many of the protesters seems more profound than partisan demonization can explain. Many of these protesters believe that they are literally losing their nation, that it will be gone in some sense, changed beyond recognition into a dystopian something. If that isn't an overreaction to a health care bill that doesn't even exist yet ...

You have no statistics or data to support your attack- just your own bigoted views of them.

And you have none to defend them. Cheers.

I understand what the protesters are saying, I just think their level of anger, vitriol and naked fear does not correlate with the issues they are protesting. And their timing, if coincidental, is a statistical miracle.

Watch this protester, and tell me there's no racial subtext. The Other has come to take away your stuff and destroy America. "I want my country back," she screams, and seems to mean it. Amazing that she appears to have slept through Medicare D, warrantless wiretapping, the dismissal of habeas corpus, TARP, etc.

The trends have not changed radically, but something has changed, and the loonbats are out in force. Feel free to explain the sudden explosion of nativist populist anger.

[Sheogorath]

I, personally, find it incredibly amusing that the very same people who BLASTED protesters against the Iraq/Afghanistan invasions (And the Patriot Act, and Guantanamo...) as 'unpatriotic' for opposing the president have now come around and started hurling names at the administration.

And now apparently Glenn Beck, that righteous beacon of democracy and freedom, has started comparing the Obama administration to Nazi Germany.

I won't say the democratic party is innocent on the subject of hypocrisy, but really, this just seems to be taking it to a whole new level.

[KukriKhan]

America must necessarily be a moderate, middle-class country for it to function. This is what America is at heart, what is at the core of its succes. Yet, this very aspect is undermined by political partisanship. That is a centripedal force. It forces people into groups, with distinct cultures, with culture wars. Moderation, recognising your neighbour as 'one of your own', is lost.

We are. What you see is the noisy, raucous, ridiculous way we have devised to achieve that moderate, middle-class country - among a bunch of revolutionaries (without major bloodshed).

[Ronin]

You can trust Barney Frank to put the nutjobs in their place


http://videocafe.crooksandliars.com/...n-obama-hitler

'On what planet do you spend most of your time?'

[ICantSpellDawg]

I, personally, find it incredibly amusing that the very same people who BLASTED protesters against the Iraq/Afghanistan invasions (And the Patriot Act, and Guantanamo...) as 'unpatriotic' for opposing the president have now come around and started hurling names at the administration.

And now apparently Glenn Beck, that righteous beacon of democracy and freedom, has started comparing the Obama administration to Nazi Germany.

I won't say the democratic party is innocent on the subject of hypocrisy, but really, this just seems to be taking it to a whole new level.

I find it amusing that this is the only angle you find amusing. You don't see any irony that the same people who yelled and screamed about the last administration and how they were dismissed are the ones dismissing people today?

[LittleGrizzly]

Anyone who says its unpatroitic to protest is a moron whichever side of the fence the instruction comes from...

I would venture those who make the effort to protest are more patriotic than other Americans no matter what they're protesting. Just remember this next time its comes to a left wing protest its not unpatriotic or unamerican. It may be unhelpful for the health bill or the war in Iraq but its thier right...

[HopAlongBunny]

Anyone who has ever spent any time working for a political organization would laugh; this has every incentive needed for organized mobilization. Money, influence, power; there is an enormous stake in this.

The question I think is interesting is: Why so much attn to this one?

Was there dissent over the bailouts? Yes.
Was there dissent over T.A.R.P.? Yes.
Was there dissent/outrage over the wiretaps? Yes.

All lost in the fog; but this issue gets the lights and shiny cameras...and never ending repetition.

Is every protester a Republican/Insurance industry patsy? Certainly not...some definitely are.
I am always curious about where the "gaze" of media comes to rest.

[Xiahou]

You can trust Barney Frank to put the nutjobs in their place


http://videocafe.crooksandliars.com/...n-obama-hitler

'On what planet do you spend most of your time?'

What do you expect from people who support LaRouche?

[Don Corleone]

So, I just got back from China and am dealing with jetlag and the end of a kidneystone of a course (2 more till I get my masters!) and thus don't have the time to read through the past few pages of this debate.

From the looks of what I can see in one particular page here, it looks like the arguments basically boil down to:

-If you disagree with the Health Care plans put forward by Congress you're a racist and a nativist

vs.

-If anything put out by Congress actually passes, it will be the end of American civilization.

Basically, the usual level of thoughtfulness and carefully reasoned arguments we can expect back here?

Seriously.... folks.

Lemur, there's all kinds of reasons besides Obama's skin color to not like the myriad of bills percolating in the eternal swamp, aka D.C. You really degrade your arguments when every single one comes back to "Agree with the White House or you're a racist/nativist" (Sorry, never saw the finer point you were trying to draw between the two).

Others: Please, other than "Nothing the Democrats are suggesting", can we have some sort of proposal put forward? Other than tort reform, what on Earth would all of you recommend to do about a system that is consuming GDP at an ever increasing rate, yet not offering comensurate results?

Basically, if nothing changes, I'm quitting my job and becoming an insurance executive. Or a doctor. Legalized theft, gotta love it.

[Lemur]

Lemur, there's all kinds of reasons besides Obama's skin color to not like the myriad of bills percolating in the eternal swamp, aka D.C. You really degrade your arguments when every single one comes back to "Agree with the White House or you're a racist/nativist"

Um, as I have said multiple times, I was attempting to explain the outrage, anger and fear expressed by the more over-the-top town hall screamers. And yeah, I think there's a racial component to that hysteria. I would never argue that to disagree with President 44 is to be a racist, but thanks for the reductio ad absurdum anyway.

[Don Corleone]

Okay, perhaps I didn't articulate myself as well as I would have liked.

Has it ever occurred to you that the people that are freaking out at these town hall meetings are terrified, not bigots? Congress has stepped in and talked about rationing, outlawing private insurance (or subsidizing the public option until private goes out of business) and meanwhile, there's talk of abortion funding, requirements for private hospitals to peform abortions and the other litany of woes. I'm not arguing that all of these characterizations are accurate. I'm arguing that the belief that they are, rather than the ever present racism you seem to suspect in anyone that disagrees with the administration might be to blame.

The guy who pushed his kid in the wheelchair up to the front of Specter's meeting comes to mind.

[Lemur]

Has it ever occurred to you that the people that are freaking out at these town hall meetings are terrified, not bigots?

Yes, clearly they are terrified. But what, exactly, are they terrified of? They seem to be willing to believe anything. Tell them that Obama plans to personally rape their gandmama, and they'll buy it. They're out of their minds with fear.

I'm arguing that the belief that they are, rather than the ever present racism you seem to suspect in anyone that disagrees with the administration might be to blame.

So for me to argue that there's a strong racial component to the white-eyed terror of the town hall screamers is to say that "anyone who disagrees with the administration" is a racist? Don, we could get a lot further in this convo if you would stop reducing my argument to absurdities.

[Don Corleone]

The line you seem to seize upon is "Our America". You have pre-decided that particular phrase is specifically tuned to a racist/nativist message.

First, I argue that it doesn't in this context. "Their America" that they refer to is the America of an ownership society of personal responsibility, where they're convinced that they're going to play the ant in the modern respin of Aesop's fable... they bust their ass to squirrel away for their family and the government is going to come and take that away from them and distribute it those who bought new flat panel televisions instead of paying insurance premiums.

Second, I have heard the phrase "Our America" a lot in the past 8 years... it usually came from the anti-war crowd. The term "Our America" generally is indicative of a "not in my name" argument, not racism or nativism.

Finally, if you're looking for boogeymen, you should stop playing the race card and start playing the homophobia card and the sexism card, because the two scariest people in Washington are Barney Frank and Nancy Pelosi. And since they're always right also, having that all-important D next to their name, anybody that disagrees with them by definition must be a homophobe and a sexist, right? It's not Barney Frank's arrogance and shocking statements about telling people how he'll spend their money, it's his gay identity, right? And it's not Nancy Pelosi's hypocicy, flying private jets for all her staff around the country while moaning about Greenhouse gasses, it's her gender, right?

I can make the identity politic arguments for the Dems better than they can these days, simply because I've heard them all so many times. If you want to talk about dropping the reductio ad absurdum arguments, stop reducing everybody that disagrees with you to a gun toting, whiskey-drinking, Jesus-loving, homophobic, racist klansman.

[Xiahou]

So for me to argue that there's a strong racial component to the white-eyed terror of the town hall screamers is to say that "anyone who disagrees with the administration" is a racist? Don, we could get a lot further in this convo if you would stop reducing my argument to absurdities.

Yes, your argument was already absurd enough. No need to reduce it further.

[Don Corleone]

For the record, before you drop the "vast-right-wing conspiracy" label on me, I'm actually pro-reform, so long as its the right reform. I don't want a half-assed rushed measure that grows government and fails to control costs. Obama claims this was the single most important piece of legislature of his presidency.... yet he demanded it be debated, discussed, paneled, vetted, presented and voted upon in.... two months? WTF?

[Lemur]

Xiahou, if you're ready to make a rational argument, or contribute anything to this discussion, feel free to do so.

The line you seem to seize upon is "Our America". You have pre-decided that particular phrase is specifically tuned to a racist/nativist message.

I "pre-decided"? What does that even mean?

"Their America" that they refer to is the America of an ownership society of personal responsibility, where they're convinced that they're going to play the ant in the modern respin of Aesop's fable... they bust their ass to squirrel away for their family and the government is going to come and take that away from them and distribute it those who bought new flat panel televisions instead of paying insurance premiums.

Don, this is your personal nightmare scenario, and I've seen you frame it many, many times. On this occasion you forgot to mention that the welfare/medicare cheats will also have Xbox 360s and smoke pot. There are some other details I'm forgetting.

Look, I'm not misunderstanding what the town hall screamers are saying, and I fully understand their arguments. (Although why they continue to tolerate Socialist fire and police departments is beyond me -- and in fact, I have argued with a RL right-wing friend who insists that those should be privatized as well, and that the military would be better run by corporations. Thankfully these views have yet to gain traction in the mainstream.)

What I am responding to is the level of anger and fear displayed by the screamers. Frankly, it's irrational. There are plenty of things to mislike about President 44, and there are many good arguments to be made against the five healthcare bills floating around. But the white-eyed terror and fury of the town hall disruptors is beyond rational process.

The term "Our America" generally is indicative of a "not in my name" argument, not racism or nativism.

Watch the birther screaming her head off about "my America." Take in her distress, her panic, her anger. Then try to argue that this is about economic policy. Clearly it is not.

If you want to talk about dropping the reductio ad absurdum arguments, stop reducing everybody that disagrees with you to a gun toting, whiskey-drinking, Jesus-loving, homophobic, racist klansman.

This just isn't worthy of you, Don. You're grandstanding instead of talking. Where have I mentioned Jesus? Where have I mentioned guns? Where did the whiskey come from, besides your anal orifice? At least the klan makes some sort of sense, since you're accusing me of being a chicken little racism-screamer, but even that level of argumentation is more appropriate to Glenn Beck than a thoughtful guy like you.

I'm ready to argue in good faith if you are.

[Xiahou]

Xiahou, if you're ready to make a rational argument, or contribute anything to this discussion, feel free to do so.

You'd have to do so first old bean. I was pretty well finished letting you make a fool out of yourself after you responded to my assertion that your claims have no supporting evidence by asking me to prove a negative.

Your claim that most protesters don't like a negro in the White House is completely unsupportable and offensive. I don't expect any of this to phase you though, so keep on digging your hole.

I just think it's pretty hilarious that you attempt to dismiss protesters shouting down their white members of Congress over their support of a bill as being racists nativists. And then you actually have the stones to accuse others of putting forward irrational and absurd arguments....

[Lemur]

Well then, Xiahou, since you're convinced that you've already won, how about you do a victory lap, and let me and Doc C have a grown-up conversation?

[Don Corleone]

I "pre-decided"? What does that even mean?

I couldn't come up with an adequate term, so I invented one. You seem to have the omniscience required, or at least believe you do, to assign motive to the rantings of the fringe elements you're citing. You heard that phrase "Our America" and you have personally decided that is proof-positive that the phrase is the smoking gun of latent racism in the crowds opposed to the leading health-care reform proposals put out for discussion right now.

Don, this is your personal nightmare scenario, and I've seen you frame it many, many times. On this occasion you forgot to mention that the welfare/medicare cheats will also have Xbox 360s and smoke pot. There are some other details I'm forgetting.

You forgot the free pizza, but yes, you seem to have the gist of it. It is a considerable, and based on the way life in these 50 is shaping up, reasoned (IMHO) concern for me and millions of other hard-working, tax-paying Americans. Laugh all you want, I've seen nothing in a Democratic or Republican led government that disputes this notion. The only thing that seems to stop the societal slouch towards the veal-calf public is gridlock, which is why I've started voting D-R-D-R-... on every ballot .
The government is buying votes and placation. What really torques me is they always buy them with my dollars, taken from my children. And no, I'm not being hypocritical. I was every bit as upset when the stinking turd that was Medicaid Part D got laid on the carpet.

Look, I'm not misunderstanding what the town hall screamers are saying, and I fully understand their arguments. (Although why they continue to tolerate Socialist fire and police departments is beyond me -- and in fact, I have argued with a RL right-wing friend who insists that those should be privatized as well, and that the military would be better run by corporations. Thankfully these views have yet to gain traction in the mainstream.)

What I am responding to is the level of anger and fear displayed by the screamers. Frankly, it's irrational. There are plenty of things to mislike about President 44, and there are many good arguments to be made against the five healthcare bills floating around. But the white-eyed terror and fury of the town hall disruptors is beyond rational process.

What could possibly be more terrifying than the belief, rational or not, that the government was going to rob you and hand your money for your health care over to the unwashed masses, leaving you with squat all to provide for yourself and your family? And you can't understand an emotional response? It has to be our old pal, Mr. Ray Cism?

Watch the birther screaming her head off about "my America." Take in her distress, her panic, her anger. Then try to argue that this is about economic policy. Clearly it is not.

In the sense that she's mad because she thinks free-market politics will be weakened, of course not. But in the sense of she personally believes she's fighting for the welfare of her family? I don't doubt it.

This just isn't worthy of you, Don. You're grandstanding instead of talking. Where have I mentioned Jesus? Where have I mentioned guns? Where did the whiskey come from, besides your anal orifice? At least the klan makes some sort of sense, since you're accusing me of being a chicken little racism-screamer, but even that level of argumentation is more appropriate to Glenn Beck than a thoughtful guy like you.

I'm ready to argue in good faith if you are.

And yet, you completely refuse to address my point that Frank & Pelosi are more feared and despised than Obama. Perhaps because it doesn't fit into your nifty, pre-wrapped racism argument?

I laid out a caricature I've seen quite a lot from the Daily Kos crowd.... the "Bubba" tar & feather job anybody that disagrees with them gets hit with. David Frum, emminent scholar and noted author? Nope, just a racist & a bigot. George Will? Homophobe. Peggy Noonan? Jesus freak.

Seriously, if you want me to quit playing identity politics, lead the way.