Academy bonuses?

[Ludens]

We already get bonuses when faction members are educated and gain a nice retinue of educated professionals. increasing influence magement etc. However even without a faction member in the city a school should impart some benefits to a settlement. they were places for mathematicians economists botanists doctors etc.

Economists? The study of economy is only a few centuries old. Classical academies weren't like modern universities: they didn't produce professionals like doctors and agricultural scientists. Rather, they trained philosophers and rhetoricians. Hence the effects of an academy depend on the governor being susceptible to such ideas (although someone who is good at maths is always useful).

Similarly, the nomads must have some form of education, but that doesn't mean they had formal institutions for higher learning. Greek and Celtic smiths didn't learn their skills at an academy either.

[Horatius Flaccus]

And philosophers would probably sooner create unrest then happiness, just look at Socrates.

[Tellos Athenaios]

The Academy line of buildings already give bonuses to your generals?

[Watchman]

Or, at least, helps them develop assorted useful traits ?

[Horatius Flaccus]

We already get bonuses when faction members are educated and gain a nice retinue of educated professionals. increasing influence magement etc. However

He recognised that, but he wants more.

[lobf]

And philosophers would probably sooner create unrest then happiness, just look at Socrates.

...

One famous example means that philosophers cause "unrest?"

Edit- That sounds rude. I imagine that philosophers either have a stabilizing effect on society or are indicative of a stable society. The more intellectuals you have, the better it would seem. I don't understand how they make states less stable, unless you're talking about inciting revolution. But I think you could make the argument that it's not philosophers inciting anything, but rather people realizing what they have been left without. Does that make sense?

[antisocialmunky]

Can we have more variation over what type of ancillaries we get? EBI invariably results in your ancillary slots spammed up with everything... Everyone has the same ones. There's no variation between the geographers/physicians/architects/historians/strategists. An easy way to fix this would be to make different types of the same type. It would be better to have good/medium/crap versions of each one depending on the traits of the character.

For example, you're more likely to get medium to good academy characters if your character is normal/intellegent or famous but if they are not too intellegent or famous, they end up being surrounded with not-so-great characters and outright con-men.

Also, it would be mroe realistic if historical figures attached themselves to more influential/famous FMs since it seems strange that they want to follow amount the idiot/suicidal emo kid of hte family.

[Horatius Flaccus]

...

One famous example means that philosophers cause "unrest?"

Edit- That sounds rude. I imagine that philosophers either have a stabilizing effect on society or are indicative of a stable society. The more intellectuals you have, the better it would seem. I don't understand how they make states less stable, unless you're talking about inciting revolution. But I think you could make the argument that it's not philosophers inciting anything, but rather people realizing what they have been left without. Does that make sense?

Don't get me wrong, I'm a 'supporter' of philosophy. But there are probably more examples of (in their time) 'hated' philosophers (which could possibly lead to unrest) then of loved philosophers. That's mostly because they don't see things as the masses see them.

And ofcourse, inciting revolution also isn't an example of a stabilizing effect of a philosopher on society.

[Tuuvi]

Personally I like USERMAATKA's idea. It makes sense that academies should grant bonuses to the settlement as a whole as well as family members, because more people would use them than just Governors and faction members.

[lobf]

Don't get me wrong, I'm a 'supporter' of philosophy. But there are probably more examples of (in their time) 'hated' philosophers (which could possibly lead to unrest) then of loved philosophers. That's mostly because they don't see things as the masses see them.

Yeah, perhaps. Mind supporting the claim?

And ofcourse, inciting revolution also isn't an example of a stabilizing effect of a philosopher on society.

My point is that you can't incite revolution in a comfortable nation. Revolution indicates fundamental, pre-existing issues with stability.

[Aulus_Hirtius]

As my campaigns progress to the later stages, I often find that I have settlements with an academy that do not have a family member physically governing the settlement. Since the faction has installed a government, it would make sense that the same sorts of ancillaries that family members get have also influenced members of the local government even if the player cannot see this process manifested. Thus, it seems to me that a small law bonus might be in order (say 5%-10% for the highest level academy).

[Andy1984]

My point is that you can't incite revolution in a comfortable nation. Revolution indicates fundamental, pre-existing issues with stability.

This can be done by traits, can't it? E.g. if your governor takes rash decisions and if he's a bad governor sitting in a city with an academy, one can give him a trait that affects public order negatively.

[moonburn]

i know the engine doesn´t allow it

but i still believe that one should be able to make a council with retinue´s like it was common in the ancient world and governors could trade retinue´s assigning people to that region council and removing some to his personal retinue as to give the region certain extra bonus like a clerk and his 5% bonus or a priest of afrodite with increased fertility

i actually had an idea once of client kings being given as retinue´s and then you could place the retinue over a unit and he would become a "regular" client king instead of the current system

and perhaps after loosing a siege if a spy survived he could leave the city with x retinues as to roleplay that a few of the council members where running away (or even a defeated general that had lost the city but survived could be turned into a retinue of a spy/assassin/diplomat in that city and so one wouldn´t loose that general)

but thats just a beautifull dream

[Cyclops]

Yeah, perhaps. Mind supporting the claim?



My point is that you can't incite revolution in a comfortable nation. Revolution indicates fundamental, pre-existing issues with stability.

Fair point.

I would add that the circumstances that give rise to philosphy might also give rise to unrest (burgeoning economy and dislocation of old social structures, more freedom of thought and more to think about in a widening world horizon).

I can't see an academy working the same in a nomad society as in a Hellenic one...unless the nomads wanted to be hellenised? Certainly greek teachers brought a lot of greek thought to Rome. The Roman virtues of gravitas, civitas and genocide were fostered by service in the administration and army, not strolling around a stoa with a bearded old queer.

[USERMAATKA]

Economists? The study of economy is only a few centuries old. Classical academies weren't like modern universities: they didn't produce professionals like doctors and agricultural scientists. Rather, they trained philosophers and rhetoricians. Hence the effects of an academy depend on the governor being susceptible to such ideas (although someone who is good at maths is always useful).

Similarly, the nomads must have some form of education, but that doesn't mean they had formal institutions for higher learning. Greek and Celtic smiths didn't learn their skills at an academy either.

A valid pint on economists though i would argue its at least 1200 years old. refering to the muslim arab writing on economics which laid the foundations of modern capitalism. Ecomics may not be as is was now and may have focused on harvest tax reforms better irigation etc.

Im not familiar to be honest what academies produced and practiced in the clasical world And i would argue that egyptian libraries (per-ankhs houses of life) attached to temples maintained huge collections of books on medicine engineering irrigation farming. which some remnants are preserved in papyri all over the world. and they would produce educated proffesionals in law, medicine the egyptians actually specialise din branches of medicine. though aprenticeship was used more widely id assume. though ive read of several academies to pump out scibes who were essential in maintainnig everything from payment records to workers to tax income. so therfore i can argue an academy migh confer bonuses without a governor. like tax or maybe health.

Im sure this happened widely and not isolated in egypt it would make alot of sense. thought not as obviously critical like today educational institutions be they poetry halls. or all out philosophy schools. will confer some bonus on any society. though not as organised as today.

As for nomadic faction. and academie is a long shot. but a wise ruler would definetely get a wise shamen scribe etc to teach his kids siblings. like genghis khan did to his siblings and kids. Also his granchildren were educated by budhist monks and nestorian christain missionaries. I would argue the sons of other peopole outside the ruling familly all over the empire might have been encouraged to do the same to their kids.

It would be nothing more than a tent yes but a system of intelectual apprenticeship other then the normal equestrian pursuits they practised. And also they would definetely see such benefits of education as they came into contact with more 'civilised' peoples. so in my opinion the saka reforms can apply to city development buildings and may potentially apply to the sarmations when they expand into greek territories?



SOOOO sorry about the long post.

thatks for ur feedback. what do u think of the points i made?

regards

[Ludens]

Im sure this happened widely and not isolated in egypt it would make alot of sense.

It makes sense to our modern perspective, but it may not have in the classical world. The Romans and Greeks did not have our concept of professionals. An academy would be visited by gentlemen of leisure rather than trainees hoping to get a job. I may be wrong, but you'll have to present some evidence that it was academies rather than on-the-job training that produced scribes and healers.

The system may have existed in Egypt and the other bureaucracies of the east, but these were now ruled by Hellenes.

As for nomadic faction. and academie is a long shot. but a wise ruler would definetely get a wise shamen scribe etc to teach his kids siblings. like genghis khan did to his siblings and kids

Again, obviously the nomads would have had some form of education. But that's not the same as an academy.

[V.T. Marvin]

@Ludens - I would agree with what you have just said, except I think that the point raised by USERMAATKA is still valid taking into accout the fact that "Academy" bbranch of the building tree in EB, like all other "buildings", is not a representation of an academy in a narrow sense - just a particular building, but rather a representation of some sort of an infrastructure. In this broader sense, I think, it could well encompass also the above-mentioned methods of some sort of "intellectual apprenticeship" to produce the "professionals" (like architects, engineers, healers, more sophisticated craftsmen, etc.) who DID exist - in some form or another, also in the acient societies.

[Watchman]

Don't the academy-type buildings contribute to the accumulation of precisely suchlike as ancillaries, or am I severely mistaken ? Note however that the lot would be around in quite the numbers regardless - someone needs to build the cities and assorted infrastructure, count taxes etc., academies or no.

[Ludens]

@Ludens - I would agree with what you have just said, except I think that the point raised by USERMAATKA is still valid taking into accout the fact that "Academy" bbranch of the building tree in EB, like all other "buildings", is not a representation of an academy in a narrow sense - just a particular building, but rather a representation of some sort of an infrastructure. In this broader sense, I think, it could well encompass also the above-mentioned methods of some sort of "intellectual apprenticeship" to produce the "professionals" (like architects, engineers, healers, more sophisticated craftsmen, etc.) who DID exist - in some form or another, also in the acient societies.

True, but craftsmen existed without academies and weren't trained in them. They learned their trade as an apprentice to another craftsman. I imagine the same applies to healers and engineers, although as USERMAATKA points out there did exist schools for healers in Egypt.

[USERMAATKA]

It makes sense to our modern perspective, but it may not have in the classical world. The Romans and Greeks did not have our concept of professionals. An academy would be visited by gentlemen of leisure rather than trainees hoping to get a job. I may be wrong, but you'll have to present some evidence that it was academies rather than on-the-job training that produced scribes and healers.

The system may have existed in Egypt and the other bureaucracies of the east, but these were now ruled by Hellenes.



Again, obviously the nomads would have had some form of education. But that's not the same as an academy.

Hello,

Good points u raise. I would argue that the greeks and romans did have profesionals like doctors, tax surveryurs, engineers. etc. galen as an example for a doctor a bit of nutcase though. and professionals were recognised and hired like the cabaal of engineers hired to develop the gasrtophetes. and educational intitutions weret just for gentlemen. A vast infrastructure existed to raise educated governors tax collectors, judges, architects, botansists, accountants. etc. This would be found across the whole mediteranean. ranging from egyt mesopotamia, and classical greece and rome.

Academies/schools etc were places for intelectuals to debate and spend liesure time as u say yes. however, and educational infrastucture would be nesecary to teach someone how to read and write. Also, libraries/academies etc were places for serious scientists to research and invent new ideas. The best documented learning institution would be the library of alexandria with many scientists contributing in fields like philosophy history etc. but also more practical things like navigation, medicine, mathematics , astonomy. and these sciencves in turn will create benefits and bonuses across healthcare economy farming etc. For example work on an improved solar calender like the egyptian one. would better improve farming and predicting sowing and harvesting time thus improving the harvest thus improving the economy (a hellinised egyptian astonomer figured out leap years i read ages ago and he did it in the library in alexandria). More wealthier meddiel class famillies will buy and education for their children. the kids end up as a historian mathematician. are aprenticed with another doctor etc. make a name for themselves then head to a research institution later in life.

Now i dont have detailed info with classical greek and roman civilisations and i keep forgeting names. Howver an educational infratucture did exist in both athens and sparta for example and yes it was dancing and jumping and fighting and poetry. but also in athens writing and medical concepts to keep urself fit (like in the lyceum and academy).

The egyptian and babylonion educational infrasturctures are very well documented. Im traveling tomorrow so ill look up a few references and will post them hopefully next week. I definetly have read alot about egypts education infrastucture. i mention this because u argue thyre ruled by hellenes. But we know full well the hellenes integrated as well as dominated. learning form the people they conqured adopting their gods their calenders like the adoption of teh egyptian solar calendar by the romans and the adoption of the babylonian calender by alexander. the helenes Also taught so Being an egyptian i know full well form the boring history books rammed in my throat as a kid. that we learnt form them became hellinised adopting the greek alphabet like in modern coptic. words form greek. superstitions, and foods. not to mention art forms like the late period mumies like the beutiful examples in the pergamon museum in berlin (a must see) and the bahariya oasis mummies.

We also know the greeks adopted local admintistration and beuracratic practices as well as adding some of their own. So i would argue Evenn if they didnt have professionals as u argued in the begining. They would definetely have them now after integration. not to mention the examples of the library of alexandria (ill get a few referneces about scientists from there)

soooooooooo sorry for th long post theres a bit more.

V.T Marvin makes a wonderful point of a infrasturcture of education represented by the academy branch of buildings. thats would not represent an underlying system either of small local village schools, aprenticeship etc.

Now i will argue such an infrastucture may exist not only in the mediteranean settled cultures but also in nomadic cultures to as they expand into 'civilised' lands like the saka and suromatae. which is the case with the pahlav. This infrastucture of education that provides anciliaries like Aulus_Hirtius points out would run the city without a governor and give the city some bonuses. so in the helenic cultures thyre calles academies and equivelant in lets say the suromatae would be the apprentisship tent or whatever it should be called!!

Thank you for ur time i wont be online for 3 days or so. but i look forward for any responses/thrashing.

regards,

[Whatever Scortamareva]

Perhaps having an academy in a settlement could increase the chance of that settlement receiving a benefactor adoptee with some nice traits..

[Ludens]

Good points u raise. I would argue that the greeks and romans did have profesionals like doctors, tax surveryurs, engineers. etc. galen as an example for a doctor a bit of nutcase though. and professionals were recognised and hired like the cabaal of engineers hired to develop the gasrtophetes.

Yes, you are right about that, but these aren't necessarily academy-trained. My impression is that they learned their skills by working as an assistant for another doctor or engineer.

A vast infrastructure existed to raise educated governors tax collectors, judges, architects, botansists, accountants. etc. This would be found across the whole mediteranean. ranging from egyt mesopotamia, and classical greece and rome.

Could you provide evidence for this vast infrastructure? So far you've only mentioned Egypt and the Middle-East, which were known for their vast bureaucracies. How did these fare after the Macedonians took over?

Academies/schools etc were places for intelectuals to debate and spend liesure time as u say yes. however, and educational infrastucture would be nesecary to teach someone how to read and write. Also, libraries/academies etc were places for serious scientists to research and invent new ideas. The best documented learning institution would be the library of alexandria with many scientists contributing in fields like philosophy history etc. but also more practical things like navigation, medicine, mathematics , astonomy. and these sciencves in turn will create benefits and bonuses across healthcare economy farming etc. For example work on an improved solar calender like the egyptian one. would better improve farming and predicting sowing and harvesting time thus improving the harvest thus improving the economy (a hellinised egyptian astonomer figured out leap years i read ages ago and he did it in the library in alexandria). More wealthier meddiel class famillies will buy and education for their children. the kids end up as a historian mathematician. are aprenticed with another doctor etc. make a name for themselves then head to a research institution later in life.

That's how science works today, but not how it worked back then. The improved astronomical calender did not improve farm yields because the farmers paid attention to the weather and the sky, not what the philosophers in Alexandria said. And why would they, when the astronomical calender was clearly of. Nor where libraries research institutions in the modern sense.

We also know the greeks adopted local admintistration and beuracratic practices as well as adding some of their own. So i would argue Evenn if they didnt have professionals as u argued in the begining. They would definetely have them now after integration. not to mention the examples of the library of alexandria (ill get a few referneces about scientists from there)

True, but you need to present direct proof that this occurred. Many eastern practices were not absorbed by Greek and Roman culture. The same thing goes for the nomads.

[USERMAATKA]

[QUOTE=Ludens;2316775]

Yes, you are right about that, but these aren't necessarily academy-trained. My impression is that they learned their skills by working as an assistant for another doctor or engineer.

Could you provide evidence for this vast infrastructure? So far you've only mentioned Egypt and the Middle-East, which were known for their vast bureaucracies. How did these fare after the Macedonians took over?

with the sakas and sauromatae i wouldnt know what happened as they intermixed with hellenes and their subject peoples. though the strabo quotes in eb when u conquer the crimean pininsula tells us they setteled and learned form the greeks in cherosenoses. while their northern cousins were more wild. it would be well to argue the sakas andsauo would learn the concept of administration and an education.
As for the middle east I do know that alexander basically kept the persian satrapies and administrations intact. he was in a rush to knock out darius. after the partition of babylon each general got a satrapy but as far as administrative work changes were superficial the upper eshelons obviously greek. but the resk intact. including priests scientists(with its broad meaning back then) and landed nobility.

As for egypt after ptolmaious took over as known u did have a susbstantial influx of greeks. but the old beurocracy and its people largely intact. specialy the old temples and their cults and theres is no shortage of evidence how the ptolemies lavished on teh temples. which doubled as educational facilities. each temple had a per-ankh(house of life 'library' somewhere nearby) though otheres existed outside the temples. but under tehit sponsorship. or the sponsorship of the pharoas.

though from what ive learned form my history is that the majority of the country remained untouched and things went on as they did. not u had a different ruling cast of greeks.

That's how science works today, but not how it worked back then. The improved astronomical calender did not improve farm yields because the farmers paid attention to the weather and the sky, not what the philosophers in Alexandria said. And why would they, when the astronomical calender was clearly of. Nor where libraries research institutions in the modern sense.

ill give u an example of the top of my head. the rise of sirius usually precedes the flood of the nile within a week or so, and an astronomer tyelling u ud better finish up the harvest and get out of the way would save money and prevent damage. this was predicted every year and anounced country wide a rather big event which we idiots in egypt still celebrate till now.
another example
engineer or idiot with some education would read the nilometer at the island of philae and predict how hight the flood will be, will it burst its banks and cause damage? will it be low and well have a bad harvest the next year? if its a low harvest the it would be better to hold on to grain stores and not export them to avoid next years possible fammine, again saving money. and greatly helping the state keep the people fed and avoid social unrest. I definetely know these remained in place after ptolmey.

Other organisations like tax revenue in the different nomes remained intact. the greeks were flabergasted by egypt (also scorned us) but they did learn alot. and the country was superbly run. the achemnids kept things as they were with the educated priesthood and nobility(which included magistrates, doctors, dentists,architect etc) intact and functioning. though largely disarmed.

i hope ive ansered all ur points please point out where i made a mess.

True, but you need to present direct proof that this occurred. Many eastern practices were not absorbed by Greek and Roman culture. The same thing goes for the nomads.

[Subotan]

Economists? The study of economy is only a few centuries old.

Formally, yes, but the study of economies goes back to pre-EB times.

[moonburn]

maybe economics as a single entity yes but there where several studies on agriculture fishing mining trading and so forth that do have an impact on productivity if well used (and one should remember the romans used it well maybe so well that they learnt that slaves where cheaper then labour and above all were expendable)

in a bbc documentary about the worst jobs in the world (link should be in one thread in this forum if not search youtube) they showed how a roman slave was worked to death in the british mines and they explicitly said that the way it was done was to maximize profit (a very important part of economics 101)

also another possible example is in the art of war where one of the 1st chapters talks about making some math and trying to explain the burden of war on a countryes economy (where sun tsu says that a soldier costs 7 families work for a year )

so we can consider that economy wasn´t yet defined but it was already being studied

[antisocialmunky]

Formally, yes, but the study of economies goes back to pre-EB times.

Indeed, the last 200 years is mainly about the FORMALIZATION OF INFORMATION rather than the creation of it. The last 50 years on the other hand has been about fixing the biases in existing collections of formal information.

[Cyclops]

Formally, yes, but the study of economies goes back to pre-EB times.

..and there's an Oeconomica by the pseudo Aristotle IIRC (as I casually double check that on Google).

Not to be confused with the Necronomicon by the mad Arab Abdul Al-Hazred. Eh, Azathoth? Nothing 'bout economics there, baby.

[Subotan]

Cthulunomics?

[Azathoth]

EDIT: I am removing this as occultist material doesn't belong in the EB forum. Oversensitive? Probably. But it's got nothing to do with the topic anyway.

-Ludens

Spoiler Alert, click show to read: 

This is the first time someone's posted to get my attention in a thread I haven't even commented in.

[Subotan]

And the decrease in aggregate demand of the economy should lead to increased price elasticity of the tentacles...