The Historical Armies Thread

[Phalanx300]

At Sellasia Sparta had 6000 Spartan citizens, a Spartan king Cleomenes III just grabbed power in Sparta and was bringing back the old ways of Sparta. He also adopted the Macedonian Phalanx which the Spartans by then used! The Periokoi were still fighting as Hoplites in this battle though.

[moonburn]

am i the only one that finds it wierd that the spartans have twice the cavalery of makedonia and the spartans are of higher quality ? shouldn´t there be a unit of hetaroi vs perhaps 2 units of hippeis to represent this or had the mak´s lost their cavalry tradition could no longer field tesalians and the spartans abandoned their farming ways and started to let the fields grow into grasslands for horses ?

[m0r1d1n]

At Sellasia Sparta had 6000 Spartan citizens, a Spartan king Cleomenes III just grabbed power in Sparta and was bringing back the old ways of Sparta. He also adopted the Macedonian Phalanx which the Spartans by then used! The Periokoi were still fighting as Hoplites in this battle though.

yup...so 4 spartans is pretty reasonable...

4xSpartans = 2xArgyraspides so it is the same number of elites if two of 10 makedonian phalangites would be elite.

i do not think that the argraspides as strong as they are in EB..should be present at all...there were no immortal argyraspides left after the diadochi wars IMO...but then again any and all of my readings in this era are EB and ye olde' wiki so...

and yes i think the KH had good cav and the maks cav had deteriorated as the true hetairoi, skilled warriors as they were, were significantly lesser...the reasons they lost to romans..but of course maks should have more cav than KH any time

EDIT : i guess this could be a nice 2vs 2 battle(right wing and left) but of courese we could add some units to make the scope larger (it is currently 21 units vs 28)

[m0r1d1n]

sign me up for this , can someone post .. lets say a getai vs rome scenario?

i think that any rome vs. maks battles in the maceedonian wars can be made into 2 vs 2...2 guys control roman armies (legion inf. + allies and cav.), while 2 guys control maks..(one with maks and the other the thracians..they were plenty...i think they had an alliance of sort..)

[IrishHitman]

Gentlemen, this is not only for battles that actually happened.

I intend to have a go at a few battles that never could be.

Alexander versus Caesar being the obvious one.

[Phalanx300]

yup...so 4 spartans is pretty reasonable...

What I mean with it is that the Spartans fought as Phalangites, so letting them be Koinen Phalangites with upgrades would be better.

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Gentlemen, this is not only for battles that actually happened.

I intend to have a go at a few battles that never could be.

Alexander versus Caesar being the obvious one.

A great idea! I'd certainly be interested in that, though we should try to recreate the ancient formations as well and fight with their tactics.

[IrishHitman]

What I mean with it is that the Spartans fought as Phalangites, so letting them be Koinen Phalangites with upgrades would be better.

A great idea! I'd certainly be interested in that, though we should try to recreate the ancient formations as well and fight with their tactics.

Well, there's not many more ways you can use those armies effectively regardless.

[Andronikos]

Check this thread https://forums.totalwar.org/vb/showthread.php?t=106523

There is a good historical armies composition paper by Moros.

[IrishHitman]

Check this thread https://forums.totalwar.org/vb/showthread.php?t=106523

There is a good historical armies composition paper by Moros.

Brilliant!
Balloon.

What we need to do now is expand it to fit a multiplayer setting at a scale near enough 1 unit/1,000 troops

[Azathoth]

At Sellasia Sparta had 6000 Spartan citizens, a Spartan king Cleomenes III just grabbed power in Sparta and was bringing back the old ways of Sparta. He also adopted the Macedonian Phalanx which the Spartans by then used! The Periokoi were still fighting as Hoplites in this battle though.

The point I was trying to make was that there were very few real homioi by then, so I don't see why the EB Spartan Hoplite should be used, as it would make the Spartan MPer unrealistically strong. But then again (my other point), it might in fact be better to include the EB Spartan units for the sake of balance. That's what I was trying to say.

[Ibrahim]

If I may, I'd laike to add an army. its not exactly EB period, but no EB game is complete sine arabianz

26* cavalry and 300 foot: should be equal to 2 unit of cavalry, and the rest infantry. I suspect some of them, perhaps 3-8 were archers, everbody else with spears or swords.

or
1/2 a unit of cavalry and the rest infantry (40 cavalry and 1500 infantry; or 26 and 1000-they come out similar).




and I doubt spartiatai were used at sellasia. didn't the king ATT, Kleomenes, make the hoplites into phalangitai?

[Phalanx300]

The point I was trying to make was that there were very few real homioi by then, so I don't see why the EB Spartan Hoplite should be used, as it would make the Spartan MPer unrealistically strong. But then again (my other point), it might in fact be better to include the EB Spartan units for the sake of balance. That's what I was trying to say.

There were a few hundred Spartan citizens/Homioi around that time. Then Cleomenes III grabbed power in Sparta and made some changes to bring back the "old" Sparta which was long gone. Now what he also did was he turned his land to the state and all other citizens as well and it was redivided for 6000 slots. The remaining slots were for the Hypomeiones, the Spartans without citizenship which made for 4000 Spartans. The remaining 2000 were Helots who thus became Neodamodeis.

(So if we go by 1000 then that would make 6 Koinen Phalangites with experienc upgrade)

He also modified the Spartan army by adopting the Macedonian Phalanx for the Spartans!

and I doubt spartiatai were used at sellasia. didn't the king ATT, Kleomenes, make the hoplites into phalangitai?

No he made the Spartans into Phalangites, the Hoplite allies still fought at Hoplites.

And there were 6000 Spartans at Sellasia which made it special because there were actually alot of Spartans fighting (in this late time).

[IrishHitman]

Can someone get me a troop list for Julius Caesar's army that he was given by the Senate?
(Not the subsequent troops he raised later on).

His four legions basically.

[Azathoth]

There were a few hundred Spartan citizens/Homioi around that time. Then Cleomenes III grabbed power in Sparta and made some changes to bring back the "old" Sparta which was long gone. Now what he also did was he turned his land to the state and all other citizens as well and it was redivided for 6000 slots. The remaining slots were for the Hypomeiones, the Spartans without citizenship which made for 4000 Spartans. The remaining 2000 were Helots who thus became Neodamodeis.

(So if we go by 1000 then that would make 6 Koinen Phalangites with experienc upgrade)

He also modified the Spartan army by adopting the Macedonian Phalanx for the Spartans!

First, there were only 2000 Spartan phalangites, the others fighting as hoplites. Now see, you're giving them EB Spartan units and Greek Phalangites with chevrons. These "Spartans" were, as you said, periokoi and helots, not the hardcore homioi of days past. I'll give you the Spartan hoplite unit for balance (and on the assumption the Spartans still used bronze breastplates), but chevrons for the Phalangitai? Before you can decide that, you have to know which pikemen the Macedonian player has. Hysteroi? Pezhetairoi? A mix of these plus Argyraspidai (meaning 3 potential types of phalanx for the Maks)?

From the EB Unit List: KH Phalangitai have morale inferior to all 3, attack inferior by 1-2, defense is equal to Argyraspidai, inferior to Hysteroi, superior to Pezhetairoi, all have the same sword except for Argyraspidai (theirs is better). I would advocate 1 chevron, to make them inferior only to Argyraspidai. But the biggest issue is in fact morale; is that much of an issue in MP (given that human players can often get units to fight to the last man if not outflanked)?

[Phalanx300]

First, there were only 2000 Spartan phalangites, the others fighting as hoplites. Now see, you're giving them EB Spartan units and Greek Phalangites with chevrons. These "Spartans" were, as you said, periokoi and helots, not the hardcore homioi of days past. I'll give you the Spartan hoplite unit for balance (and on the assumption the Spartans still used bronze breastplates), but chevrons for the Phalangitai? Before you can decide that, you have to know which pikemen the Macedonian player has. Hysteroi? Pezhetairoi? A mix of these plus Argyraspidai (meaning 3 potential types of phalanx for the Maks)?

What are you basing that on? From Roma Surrectum Historians and other sources they all say the Spartans switched to Phalangites.

These Spartans were about 700 men, the Hypomeiones joined them as full citizens which came to 4000 Spartans. The remaining 2000 were Helots given full citizinship which made a force of 6000 Spartans.

They weren't the hardcore Homioi of the past yet they were more hardcore and true to Spartan law then the previous Spartans and possibly/probably the EB Spartans.

From the EB Unit List: KH Phalangitai have morale inferior to all 3, attack inferior by 1-2, defense is equal to Argyraspidai, inferior to Hysteroi, superior to Pezhetairoi, all have the same sword except for Argyraspidai (theirs is better). I would advocate 1 chevron, to make them inferior only to Argyraspidai. But the biggest issue is in fact morale; is that much of an issue in MP (given that human players can often get units to fight to the last man if not outflanked)?

I'd say give Phillip Pezhetairoi and perhaps a unit of Argyraspidai, we also have a Historical battle with this same Phillip against Rome! Phalangite levies is probably no seeing that they were only called upon with emergency and this wasn't that but the Factional army. And yes 1 chevron would do great.

[IrishHitman]

I disagree on the chevron front.

We need to test any unit we intend to give chevrons against their historical opponents, then assign or deny them chevrons based on how close they are to performing to how sources say they did.

[Azathoth]

http://www.perseus.tufts.edu/hopper/...light=sellasia

I guess those 2000 helots were the Pikemen then. If not, then the Spartans had 8000 pikemen, which I doubt.

I'd say give Phillip Pezhetairoi and perhaps a unit of Argyraspidai, we also have a Historical battle with this same Phillip against Rome! Phalangite levies is probably no seeing that they were only called upon with emergency and this wasn't that but the Factional army. And yes 1 chevron would do great.

Philip? You mean Antigonos Doson.

[Phalanx300]

http://www.perseus.tufts.edu/hopper/...light=sellasia

I guess those 2000 helots were the Pikemen then. If not, then the Spartans had 8000 pikemen, which I doubt.



Philip? You mean Antigonos Doson.

Oh my bad always seem to confuse the two.

And about that link, nothing seems to say that there were only 2000 pikemen and 4000 hoplites among the Spartans.

[Azathoth]

The alternative is that Cleomenes had 8000 phalangites.

[Phalanx300]

The alternative is that Cleomenes has 8000 phalangites.

Again where do you base that from? All sources I've read said 6000 Spartan Phalangites.

[Azathoth]

After Antigonus had taken Tegea by siege, and had surprised Orchomenus and Mantineia, Cleomenes, now reduced to the narrow confines of Laconia, set free those of the Helots who could pay down five Attic minas (thereby raising a sum of five hundred talents), armed two thousand of them in Macedonian fashion as an offset to the White Shields of Antigonus, and planned an undertaking which was great and entirely unexpected.

Macedonian fashion = pike phalanx. So 2000 pike phalanx here, and if you add 6000 more Spartans that's 8000.

[Phalanx300]

Macedonian fashion = pike phalanx. So 2000 pike phalanx here, and if you add 6000 more Spartans that's 8000.

Yes, after he changed the Spartan army he added 2000 Helots into the Spartan Phalanx which numbered 4000 without them, such things happened before. When Sparta gave Helots full citizenship they would become Neodamodeis.

[Azathoth]

Uh-huh, those were two separate instances. Ok.

[Phalanx300]

Uh-huh, those were two separate instances. Ok.

Yes it were, yet where does it say then that the Spartan Phalanx numbered 6000 before that?

The 6000 Spartans at Sellasia of which were 2000 previous Helots.

[Azathoth]

Yes it were, yet where does it say then that the Spartan Phalanx numbered 6000 before that?

The 6000 Spartans at Sellasia of which were 2000 previous Helots.

I was agreeing with you; sorry if I sounded sarcastic.

[Phalanx300]

I was agreeing with you; sorry if I sounded sarcastic.

Oh, seemed like you were beeing sarcastic. Though the rest of Cleomenes his army isn't very called as detailed with numbers and what kind of units.

[IrishHitman]

Can we move on from the Spartans please....

[m0r1d1n]

Can someone get me a troop list for Julius Caesar's army that he was given by the Senate?
(Not the subsequent troops he raised later on).

His four legions basically.

four veteran legions: Legio VII, Legio VIII, Legio IX Hispana, and Legio X

Spoiler Alert, click show to read: 

typical legion of this period had 5,120 legionaries as well as a large number of camp followers, servants and slaves. Legions could contain as many as 6,000 fighting men when including the auxiliaries, although much later in Roman history the number was reduced to 1,040 to allow for greater mobility. Numbers would also vary depending on casualties suffered during a campaign; Julius Caesar's legions during his campaign in Gaul often only had around 3,500 men.

so i think we got...5000*4 legionaries and 1000*4 auxiliaries (light cavalry, light infantry or velites)

ummm...i don't think it would be correct to take 1 unit=1000 men..instead lets divide the total no. of men in a particular unit type by their unit size in EB...

like...20000/200 = 100 legionaries,
1500 cav / 100 = 15 units cav.
2500 L.I. / 160 = 15 units L.I. (approx.)

ratio = 6 or 7:1:1 (approx.)

OR

the previous way we got 20 legionaries 2 cav, 2 auxilia infantry

then we keep the ratio of units intact while scaling down the total no. of units for both caesar's army and megas's army (after determining the no. of units there too) to make the battle playable in MP EB...what say??

i know this is a rather approximate amount but....best i could get......

[mountaingoat]

anyone have more info ?

[antisocialmunky]

I think Pennesula Italica or Invisio Barbarorum... um... ONE of the Roman RTW mods over there at teh twcenter.net has a campaign for Julius Caesar with a fairly extensive dostier of his legions.