Big Shields

**Lanceari** · 08-13-2009, 16:53

Originally Posted by antisocialmunky

...shield defense does not get APed in half.

What is APed?

**Aemilius Paulus** · 08-13-2009, 16:57

Originally Posted by Epi

What is APed?

AP is armour piercing, or when a RTW/EB unit with the AP attribute overlooks half of the opponent's armour. For example: a Dakian Falxman attacks a Roman Hastati with 22 armour, but due to the falx's AP attribute, the falxmen has only 11 armour to go against.

antisocialmunky was saying that the AP attribute only halves the armour, but not the shield and the defence skill.

**Lanceari** · 08-13-2009, 20:46

Originally Posted by Aemilius Paulus

AP is armour piercing, or when a RTW/EB unit with the AP attribute overlooks half of the opponent's armour. For example: a Dakian Falxman attacks a Roman Hastati with 22 armour, but due to the falx's AP attribute, the falxmen has only 11 armour to go against.

antisocialmunky was saying that the AP attribute only halves the armour, but not the shield and the defence skill.

Thanks, I was confused by the "ed" in APed. Never thought of using AP as a verb in past tense.

**Aulus Caecina Severus** · 08-13-2009, 21:29

I was more interested about those low shield values in EB.
Some units like roman legionary carry a big rectangular "scutum" with 4 of defence.
Strange: also pedites extraordinarii (with their round shield) have 4 of shield defence.
And phalangites carry a round shield with 5 (!).
Then, i ve did some test and I ve noted that phalangites are very strong also out of phalanx mode.
I agree with EB team choice to give low shield values, but i don t like that round shield carry the same value of big rectangular/oval shield.

However, for game mechanics, shield value count only for attack in front or left(for melee) and become double in front for missile attack(for example roman scutum(4) become 8 for missile attacks from the front).
For this reason an extra shield value(like 7 or 8) make unit too powerful in the front.
I ve already made this battle EDU with +2 to all shield value(without phalangites of course) in my unofficial mini-mod.
https://forums.totalwar.org/vb/showthread.php?t=119572

But, after this, I ve noted that units was too strong against missile weapons, so I made +1 to all missile weapons.

**Lanceari** · 08-13-2009, 22:45

Originally Posted by Aulus Caecina Severus

I was more interested about those low shield values in EB.
Some units like roman legionary carry a big rectangular "scutum" with 4 of defence....

However, for game mechanics, shield value count only for attack in front or left(for melee) and become double in front for missile attack(for example roman scutum(4) become 8 for missile attacks from the front)....

Regarding your first point, I would add Camilian Triariis have a shield value of 4, equal to Principe's and Marian Legionairs. My instinct goes along with your comment: the roman scutum should have a higher defense value than the hoplon. Maybe this would create some unbalance between the combat effectiveness of Legionary and the Hoplite.

If that is the case, we could reduce the skill level of the legionary.

After all, carrying such a large shield must be cumbersome,

but it certainly stops arrows.

As for the second point, I am not clear how game mechanics work. I thought shields had cero value when attacked from the side or from behind. I vaguely remember hearing shield values were reduced when walking or running. But I am not sure if shield values are ever doubled. Could someone educate us here? Is there a thread with this information elsewhere? Ludus Magna reports his experiments but I could not find the actual formulas there.

**DaciaJC** · 08-13-2009, 22:51

Originally Posted by Epi

I thought shields had cero value when attacked from the side or from behind.

As presented in EB, shields are carried in the left hand. Thus, missile attacks from the right or rear of the unit will ignore the shield defense.

**antisocialmunky** · 08-14-2009, 01:23

To be honest, shouldn't elite units get some sort of shield bonus for being elite? I mean, you're not just hiding behind you're shield unless you're in tight formation. You're like actually using the thing to not die like the noobs are.

**Aulus Caecina Severus** · 08-14-2009, 13:51

Originally Posted by Epi

As for the second point, I am not clear how game mechanics work. I thought shields had cero value when attacked from the side or from behind. I vaguely remember hearing shield values were reduced when walking or running. But I am not sure if shield values are ever doubled. Could someone educate us here? Is there a thread with this information elsewhere? Ludus Magna reports his experiments but I could not find the actual formulas there.

http://www.twcenter.net/forums/showthread.php?t=111344

**Lanceari** · 08-14-2009, 17:24

Originally Posted by Aulus Caecina Severus

http://www.twcenter.net/forums/showthread.php?t=111344

Thanks, this is very helpful. The pertinent part reads, and I quote:

[shield] : Unit's shield value, taken into account against both ranged and melee attacks, but only when they come from the front or the left side. Against missiles from the front it offers twice the protection it's value suggests. Measures the blocking capabilities of a unit's shield. Max value is 31 and everything higher will be considered 31.

...so the frontal defense value of either a Hoplon or Scutum is 4 x 2 = 8. This should take care of arrows incoming from the front.

...but still leaves open the other question raised here: should the Roman Scutum have a higher defense value than the hoplite shield? ...possibly at the expense of a reduction in skill level?

**Ludens** · 08-14-2009, 12:47

Originally Posted by Aulus Caecina Severus

I was more interested about those low shield values in EB.
Some units like roman legionary carry a big rectangular "scutum" with 4 of defence.
Strange: also pedites extraordinarii (with their round shield) have 4 of shield defence.
And phalangites carry a round shield with 5 (!).
Then, i ve did some test and I ve noted that phalangites are very strong also out of phalanx mode.
I agree with EB team choice to give low shield values, but i don t like that round shield carry the same value of big rectangular/oval shield.

Phalangites are special case. They get a higher shield value and lower defence to simulate the vulnerability of their flanks. It's also been mentioned that the phalanx formation protected individual pikemen from arrows. Personally, I rather doubt that, but historically the phalanx seems to have had little trouble operating in the missile heavy east.

A long time ago someone proposed that shield values were increased in EB, but the argument against it was that this makes AP weapons less effective. A falx or good axe will make short work of a shield. The current situation is not perfect either, but the team has considered these arguments.