Big Shields

**Aulus Caecina Severus** · 08-14-2009, 13:51

Originally Posted by Epi

As for the second point, I am not clear how game mechanics work. I thought shields had cero value when attacked from the side or from behind. I vaguely remember hearing shield values were reduced when walking or running. But I am not sure if shield values are ever doubled. Could someone educate us here? Is there a thread with this information elsewhere? Ludus Magna reports his experiments but I could not find the actual formulas there.

http://www.twcenter.net/forums/showthread.php?t=111344

**Lanceari** · 08-14-2009, 17:24

Originally Posted by Aulus Caecina Severus

http://www.twcenter.net/forums/showthread.php?t=111344

Thanks, this is very helpful. The pertinent part reads, and I quote:

[shield] : Unit's shield value, taken into account against both ranged and melee attacks, but only when they come from the front or the left side. Against missiles from the front it offers twice the protection it's value suggests. Measures the blocking capabilities of a unit's shield. Max value is 31 and everything higher will be considered 31.

...so the frontal defense value of either a Hoplon or Scutum is 4 x 2 = 8. This should take care of arrows incoming from the front.

...but still leaves open the other question raised here: should the Roman Scutum have a higher defense value than the hoplite shield? ...possibly at the expense of a reduction in skill level?

**DaciaJC** · 08-14-2009, 17:44

Hoplitai have 4 shield, same as Roman legionaries.

EDIT: Sorry, my mistake. I mis-read your question.

**Aulus Caecina Severus** · 08-16-2009, 13:08

Originally Posted by Frontline1944

Hoplitai have 4 shield, same as Roman legionaries.

This is the true mistake

Oplon ISN T Scutum

**antisocialmunky** · 08-16-2009, 13:49

Aspis covers eyes to knees and shins are covered by greeves. Scutum covers eyes to ankles and you cover the leading leg with a greeve.

Its comperable.

**Watchman** · 08-16-2009, 17:44

AFAIK the diameter of the aspis was pretty variable actually; I was recently looking through the assorted Osprey books dealing with hoplites, and the pictorial sources seem to suggest everything from "shoulder to hip" to "shoulder to knee", with "shoulder to mid-thigh" seeming to be about the most common...
'Course, it's not like you couldn't adjust the height of your stance behind it for greater coverage as necessary anyway.

Anyway, AFAIK most incarnations of the scutum are not only more covering, but the whole thing is also *much* more robustly constructed - what with triple plywood plus hide covering as opposed to single-planked dome stressed with a cover of half-millimeter bronze. But 4 is the highest the shields go (the special rules of the pikemen nonwithstanding) in the statting system I was handed so meh, plus given that the actual construction of most units' shields is kind of a big question mark (or in any case I couldn't be bothered to try tracking down the details for all the several hundred of the lot) it was pretty much ignored and the value allocation done nigh entirely based on the size of the shields.

**Mikhail Mengsk** · 08-16-2009, 19:49

I manually highened scutum armor value to 5.

I don't understand why phalangites has 5 shield value: the phalanx formation could protect from arrows? How? In fact they have small shields, and when in formation they can't easily adjust their stance in order to protect from arrows.

**Lanceari** · 08-17-2009, 17:20

Originally Posted by antisocialmunky

Aspis covers eyes to knees and shins are covered by greeves. Scutum covers eyes to ankles and you cover the leading leg with a greeve.

Its comperable.

Greek Levy Hoplites do not wear greaves and some of the other armor... Yet, they have a Shield Rating of 4, same as Rorariis and, same as Classical Hoplites. If the shield value is supposed to include the value of this armor, Greek Levy Hoplites should have a lower Shield Rating than Classical Hoplites (which wear more armor). Yet they have the same Shield Rating.

I understand, Armor is represented by the Armor Rating assigned to the unit. If so, a unit wearing more armor should have a higher Armor Rating, not a higher Shield Rating.

On the other hand, I understand heavy and cumbersome equipment should reduce the weapons skill level of a soldier. There is no free lunch. A larger shield offers better protection but it is heavy and cumbersome. The challenge is how model this trade off in a game.

**Vasiliyi** · 08-27-2009, 20:38

Just read this entire thread, and Im impressed with its depth. Excellent work to those who qouted and sited their sources. Hope theres more.

**bobbin** · 08-15-2009, 09:06

Given that the Scutum was bigger they probably should but i'm sure the EB team has a good reason.

If watchman is kicking around he could probably answer for you as he did the stats for EB.