I...Agree with the French

[Andres]

I can't see the face of people walking in front of me. Is that a security risk?

Should wearing a mask be illegal too?

Howabout false mostaches?

OMG, Halloween will be next.

Nobody said that, that's just silly and avoiding the real issue.

Let's call a spade a spade. It's not about 'safety' or "hygiene'.

No, burka's should be disallowed because they are denigrating for the women wearing them. It's a clothing designed to make women unrecognisable objects and to mark them as inferior beings. Away with the burka, it's a disgrace.

[miotas]

What gives you the right to determine what a person can wear? We aren't dealing with 5 year olds here, these are grown women who should be able to decide what they want to wear. Treating them like little kids and telling them how to get dressed is denigrating.

[rory_20_uk]

It is alien to our society.

People should come to the country to meld with the society, not do what they or their ancestors did in their own.

If they don't like it - leave.

[Idaho]

It is alien to our society.

People should come to the country to meld with the society, not do what they or their ancestors did in their own.

If they don't like it - leave.

Lulz...

Is that enshrined in the constitution? Perhaps it should be. We can get parliament to set out what cultural behaviour is acceptable, and anyone who doesn't comply should be deported. How about some good honest white english woman who decides to wear a burkha? Should she be imprisoned?

The Cultural Norms Act (2010)

Section A: Acceptable attire includes:
(i) Slacks and shirts for men
(ii) Skirts and dresses for the ladies

This board can be truely tragi-comic.

[Idaho]

Interestingly if you look at 20-30 year old photos of crowds in Islamic countries - almost all women are not veiled.

The Koran suggests that men and women dress modestly and "cover all that isn't apparent". The current fashion for complete veiling is relatively recent. It is neither islamic in origin, nor is it that traditional. But hey - this is the org - we don't care about understanding things - we just want a place to knee-jerk.

Pictures of Nasser's funeral:



Left, a Woman in Saudi Arab dress of Royal Family and
Right, a Woman in Palestine dress from Bethlehem:

[rory_20_uk]

Lulz...

Is that enshrined in the constitution? Perhaps it should be. We can get parliament to set out what cultural behaviour is acceptable, and anyone who doesn't comply should be deported. How about some good honest white english woman who decides to wear a burkha? Should she be imprisoned?

The Cultural Norms Act (2010)

Section A: Acceptable attire includes:
(i) Slacks and shirts for men
(ii) Skirts and dresses for the ladies

This board can be truely tragi-comic.

Indeed it can. Of course, on matters you care about extreme measures are justified...

[Idaho]

Indeed it can. Of course, on matters you care about extreme measures are justified...

What are you actually scared of Rory? You think that your girlfriend will be forced to wear a burkha?

It's an issue because people make it one. Any law would be utterly unworkable, illiberal and ultimately counterproductive.

As I have attempted to show, fashions change. 'Islamic' fashions change too. They will change again - especially if they are not made into issues central to identity.

[Andres]

What are you actually scared of Rory? You think that your girlfriend will be forced to wear a burkha?

It's an issue because people make it one. Any law would be utterly unworkable, illiberal and ultimately counterproductive.

As I have attempted to show, fashions change. 'Islamic' fashions change too. They will change again - especially if they are not made into issues central to identity.

Do you honestly think the burka is just some new fashion and nothing else?

Care to explain the succes of this "new fashion" in Afghanistan?

[HoreTore]

What's the most important issues for female liberation?

Economic independence, economic independence and economic independence.


Anything else, like burkas or whatever, is secondary.

[Cute Wolf]

Well, I Must said that.....

I agree with those French, All covered, and loose fitting suits for women made them easier to hide the bomb in. But guys... talking about Islamic dresscode this late years, those fanatics seemed to had a tighter grips by now.... using peer pressures and school regulations even my girlfriend was "forced" to wear that in her highschool.

But seriously, AGAINST MOST THAT THEY BELIEVE, using all covered dress DOESN'T stop some filthy minded males to grab their breasts and caress their butts, SERIOUSLY!, here, in Indonesia.... MOST WOMEN THAT GOT RAPED WEARS HIJAB!!! (Citation: Kompas)

EDIT: but once you got yourself a girlfriend that wear "hijab". I bet they still prefer to open their dress when in your room.

[Meneldil]

What gives you the right to determine what a person can wear? We aren't dealing with 5 year olds here, these are grown women who should be able to decide what they want to wear. Treating them like little kids and telling them how to get dressed is denigrating.

I don't know what gives anyone a right to tell what a person can wear, but french laws surely can tell what a person cannot wear. Fine enough for me.

Now, before you start using general principles and whatnots, a few informations:

- the french idea of laïcité (sometimes described abroad as a general anti-religious feeling) involves many thing, such as not wearing any religious symbols in a public area. Obviously, the whole thingy has been lately in conflict with veils, burkas, burkinis and other ridiculous islamofascist clothing fashions, but be assured that a catholic kid is in theory not allowed to wear a cross in school, just like a jewish one is not allowed to wear a kippa.
- swimming pools are public areas.
- burkinis are a religious symbol, which not only - as Don explained - tries to carry a message ('Islam is teh ') but also turns women into mere objects.

So yeah, good riddance. It's about freaking time, and I hope the law project that attempts to ban Burka, Niqab and other similar middle-age crap will pass soon. Not that there are many women wearing burka in France, but that way, they'll know that their distorded view of religion and identity is not welcome here.

Edit: Reading the article really makes it sound like France is on crusade against islam and what not. Obviously, most of the issues nowadays are caused by islam and muslims who can't graspe the principle of laicité, but this very idea of laicité was at first aimed at the catholic church. It also greatly favored the freedom of minor religious groups (jews, protestants, armenians) in France.

[Fragony]

but be assured that a catholic kid is in theory not allowed to wear a cross in school, just like a jewish one is not allowed to wear a kippa.

In theory or practise? I agree with Miotas, security is my only consideration for the burkha, but a niqaab or a veil is just fashion to me. The maroccan pirate-veil even looks kinda cool.

[Furunculus]

Let's call a spade a spade. It's not about 'safety' or "hygiene'.

No, burka's should be disallowed because they are denigrating for the women wearing them. It's a clothing designed to make women unrecognisable objects and to mark them as inferior beings. Away with the burka, it's a disgrace.

to take this further, we expect to be able to 'read' someones face in order to judge their intentions and assess their trustworthiness, especially with those we don't know personally.

that may not matter in societies where women are effectively chattel, why do you need to trust someone who has no power and influence to affect your life, but i kind of thought we'd got past that in the west.

i'm not sure i'd legislate against a form of clothing, but i'd be damn sure there was no legislation barring discrimination on the trust grounds.

[Beskar]

Nobody said that, that's just silly and avoiding the real issue.

Let's call a spade a spade. It's not about 'safety' or "hygiene'.

No, burka's should be disallowed because they are denigrating for the women wearing them. It's a clothing designed to make women unrecognisable objects and to mark them as inferior beings. Away with the burka, it's a disgrace.

Person's choice. The person should have the choice not to wear them, not necessarily be "banned". However, it should fit in with clothing standards, such as health or safety regulation.

On the other hand, there are certain biniki's being banned because it is clothing designed to make women sexual objects and mark them as inferior beings for a man's pleasure. Away with the bikini, it's a disgrace.

[HoreTore]

Person's choice. The person should have the choice not to wear them, not necessarily be "banned". However, it should fit in with clothing standards, such as health or safety regulation.

On the other hand, there are certain biniki's being banned because it is clothing designed to make women sexual objects and mark them as inferior beings for a man's pleasure. Away with the bikini, it's a disgrace.

Clothing? That's a secondary issue when it comes to womens rights. The primary issue is economic independence. Without that, none of the other stuff is possible, nor is it even relevant. Without economic independence, the woman remains a slave. You can make her well trained and well dressed, but she will still be a slave.

First get her an income. Then you can worry about all the other stuff.

[rvg]

Clothing? That's a secondary issue when it comes to womens rights. The primary issue is economic independence. Without that, none of the other stuff is possible, nor is it even relevant. Without economic independence, the woman remains a slave. You can make her well trained and well dressed, but she will still be a slave.

First get her an income. Then you can worry about all the other stuff.

Yep. Equal opportunity and equal pay. The rest will follow on its own.

[Fragony]

Clothing? That's a secondary issue when it comes to womens rights. The primary issue is economic independence. Without that, none of the other stuff is possible, nor is it even relevant. Without economic independence, the woman remains a slave. You can make her well trained and well dressed, but she will still be a slave.

First get her an income. Then you can worry about all the other stuff.

Well that isn't a very realistic course of events now is it, why would one hire a blue sack without eyes when one can hire something that resembles a human being.

[rvg]

Well that isn't a very realistic course of events now is it, why would one hire a blue sack without eyes when one can hire something that resembles a human being.

Well, an example would be to service other blue sacks in a blue sack neighborhood. In that case it would totally make sense to hire a blue sack for the job.

[miotas]

This is starting to sound kinky.

I would like to think that qualifications and personal qualities would overcome something as petty as a persons appearance.

[Samurai Waki]

...

What a silly thread.

[Andres]

This is starting to sound kinky.

I would like to think that qualifications and personal qualities would overcome something as petty as a persons appearance.

Well, allthough he worded it "Fragonesque", I kinda agree with Fragony.

An employer won't hire you if you constantly want to wear a burqua.

For some jobs, it's probably just not safe, and in other jobs you have dresscodes (banks, law firms, stores, ...).

So, by insisting to constantly be allowed to wear the burqua, you exclude yourself from many job opportunities. Which also addresses HoreTore's point about being able to get an income.

Welcome in the real world

[Fragony]

Well, an example would be to service other blue sacks in a blue sack neighborhood. In that case it would totally make sense to hire a blue sack for the job.

Doing what. Put it at the garbage with the rest of the trash who can see the difference anyway, it's blue, no eyes, a sack, swoosh bye. I can't believe how you guys are trying to wrap a civilized society around this just to make extreme backwardness more pleasing to the eye.

[rvg]

Doing what. Put it at the garbage with the rest of the trash who can see the difference anyway, it's blue, no eyes, a sack, swoosh bye. I can't believe how you guys are trying to wrap a civilized society around this just to make extreme backwardness more pleasing to the eye.

Oh, I'm not making any excuses for wearing a blue sack. From the purely business perspective though, the blue sacks' cash is the same color as yours. Thus, if buying stuff from a store staffed with their fellow blue sacks will cause them to spend more, it only makes sense to staff the store accordingly. *shrug* business is color blind and deity-neutral.