I...Agree with the French

[Andres]

What are you actually scared of Rory? You think that your girlfriend will be forced to wear a burkha?

It's an issue because people make it one. Any law would be utterly unworkable, illiberal and ultimately counterproductive.

As I have attempted to show, fashions change. 'Islamic' fashions change too. They will change again - especially if they are not made into issues central to identity.

Do you honestly think the burka is just some new fashion and nothing else?

Care to explain the succes of this "new fashion" in Afghanistan?

[HoreTore]

What's the most important issues for female liberation?

Economic independence, economic independence and economic independence.


Anything else, like burkas or whatever, is secondary.

[Cute Wolf]

Well, I Must said that.....

I agree with those French, All covered, and loose fitting suits for women made them easier to hide the bomb in. But guys... talking about Islamic dresscode this late years, those fanatics seemed to had a tighter grips by now.... using peer pressures and school regulations even my girlfriend was "forced" to wear that in her highschool.

But seriously, AGAINST MOST THAT THEY BELIEVE, using all covered dress DOESN'T stop some filthy minded males to grab their breasts and caress their butts, SERIOUSLY!, here, in Indonesia.... MOST WOMEN THAT GOT RAPED WEARS HIJAB!!! (Citation: Kompas)

EDIT: but once you got yourself a girlfriend that wear "hijab". I bet they still prefer to open their dress when in your room.

[Fragony]

I agree with those French, All covered, and loose fitting suits for women made them easier to hide the bomb in.

Well in case of the burkini that's a bit hard.



I think this is taking it a bit too far, should I have a problem with this.

edit: afterthought, I can't believe I am saying this. I don't think these shambling sleepingbags are the ones going to the pool. Wearing a burkha is closing yourself of to society, the burkini sounds more like a good compromise, being part of society without compromising theirselves. We happy they happy, but we aren't happy. Would we have all this fuzz if they picked a name for that thing that doesn't sound like Burkha?

[Furunculus]

Let's call a spade a spade. It's not about 'safety' or "hygiene'.

No, burka's should be disallowed because they are denigrating for the women wearing them. It's a clothing designed to make women unrecognisable objects and to mark them as inferior beings. Away with the burka, it's a disgrace.

to take this further, we expect to be able to 'read' someones face in order to judge their intentions and assess their trustworthiness, especially with those we don't know personally.

that may not matter in societies where women are effectively chattel, why do you need to trust someone who has no power and influence to affect your life, but i kind of thought we'd got past that in the west.

i'm not sure i'd legislate against a form of clothing, but i'd be damn sure there was no legislation barring discrimination on the trust grounds.

[Vladimir]

Funny.

Another one from AFP: http://www.google.com/hostednews/afp...ipHzwXtl2sWJ0A

[miotas]

Well in case of the burkini that's a bit hard.



I think this is taking it a bit too far, should I have a problem with this.

Ok, now I am just stunned. THAT is what they want to ban? Would you ban this?

[Husar]

Yeah, if it's meant to make them unattractive I must say it fails completely...

[rvg]

Wearing burqas must be allowed. As much as they offend my sensibilities, wearing that sack is a personal business of the wearer. Of course, *driving* with that thing on should be strictly verbotten.

[Idaho]

Do you honestly think the burka is just some new fashion and nothing else?

Care to explain the succes of this "new fashion" in Afghanistan?

What has Afghanistan got to do with this? This is about european law.

[Idaho]

So what, if they insist on asking more than we are prepared to give humiliate the crap out of them, mock them, redicule them, up to the point that they simply can't take it anymore, and after that laugh them in their face until they start enjoying it and laugh along. Presto.

So harrass and abuse people who do things differently to you Fragony. Nice.

[rory_20_uk]

You're right. Allow everything that a culture somewhere finds OK. Knives under cots? Sure, why not. Dogmatic teaching from a young age? It works abroad, why not here? Never offend others sensibilities, so everyone must take shoes off before entering a house of Mosque. Mustn't let police work offend anyone. Polygamy? Well, rather legalise it than cause any offence. Cutting sheep's throats in the back garden? Well, if their grandfathers did it we can't change them can we? Church bells causing offence? Better stop them too whilst we're at it. The Queen is defender of the Faith. Clearly that's discrimination. Better scrap that too.

[Centurion1]

What has Afghanistan got to do with this? This is about european law.

Taliban and their anti-female laws.

It is denigrating to women. I don't know if you can revoke the privilege unless you infringe on personal freedoms. The women don't complain because that is their culture but as soon as they gain some freedom from their male oppressors i am sure they won't want to wear the burkha. i mean it doesn't really look very convient, must really mess with your peripherals.


Gosh i felt like a feminist for a minute there.

[Fragony]

So harrass and abuse people who do things differently to you Fragony. Nice.

I have no time for their imaginary friends, when you are tresspassing meet the dogs. The only way we can make this work is by being perfectly clear, this is us, you are welcome here but this is not your country it is ours and we do things our way. So if some beard demands 5 prayer breaks a day they won't make theirselves very popular. Ask it to me and I will give him a spot where there is absolute certainty that while he is praying to mecca everybody will be looking at his butt. If you can't take a healthy dose of rudeness you definately don't belong in the Netherlands, we don't like to be told what to do.

[rvg]

Hmm... no problem. Don't give muslims any breaks. Don't adjust anything to fit their needs. That's not a problem really, however, telling them what to wear imho goes too far. You don't need to (and quite frankly, shouldn't) change the existing rules to accomodate them, but let's face it, clothing as long as it meets the basic standards of public decency is a personal business of the wearer. Otherwise we're getting into the fashion police territory reserved for for Iranian Basij and the Taliban Ministry of the Promotion of Virtue and Prevention of Vice.

[Louis VI the Fat]

Me and my friends recently converted to animism. We went to the swimming pool dressed like this. We were banned.






Or, in other words, societies have basic dress codes of what is appropriate attire. We are all forced to abide by it. If not by law, then by social convention.

Societies also change. I can not wear Celtic clothing of 2500 years ago. One hundred years ago, a woman in pants would create outrage. Currently, the dress codes of new cultures are assimilating. Assimilation is always a two-way process, a new common dress code will be formed. This assimilation is not a peaceful process. Never has been. The right of men to have long hair in the sixties, of women to wear trousers in the early 20th century - all was done through struggle, bans, moral outrage.

Currently, new cultures are changing publicly accepted dress codes too. Alas, moving them in a reactionary direction. In Paris north or east, a women can not walk the streets in a skimpy summer dress anymore. It is just not worth it, not worth the hassle. The influence of new cultures has managed to destroy a cherished French tradition too: women no longer bathe topless. They don't feel comfortable anymore. I can not begin to describe my grief over this.

[Idaho]

You're right. Allow everything that a culture somewhere finds OK. Knives under cots? Sure, why not. Dogmatic teaching from a young age? It works abroad, why not here? Never offend others sensibilities, so everyone must take shoes off before entering a house of Mosque. Mustn't let police work offend anyone. Polygamy? Well, rather legalise it than cause any offence. Cutting sheep's throats in the back garden? Well, if their grandfathers did it we can't change them can we? Church bells causing offence? Better stop them too whilst we're at it. The Queen is defender of the Faith. Clearly that's discrimination. Better scrap that too.

What the devil are you wittering on about We are talking about the right of people to wear whatever clothes they like.

Church bells causing offence eh? That sounds like a classic example of a news agenda puff-piece. I'd love you to find the actual story behind that. You sound like you have swallowed a year's subscription to the Daily Mail. A lot of unsubstantiated nonsense masquarading as 'British culture in crisis'.

Once again I ask - what about your life has been compromised in any way by people wearing hijab?

[Fragony]

That's not a problem really

Yet it is, for every beard demanding special treatment there is an army of the inquisitors of the leftist church with their unlimited funds to swing their juridical wrecking ball. It has become less worse lately since we are kinda fed up at this point and the leftist church in the end only cares about their own comfortable existance and the funds might be less fat next round.

The influence of new cultures has managed to destroy a cherished French tradition too: women no longer bathe topless. They don't feel comfortable anymore. I can not begin to describe my grief over this.


HA when it comes to that civilization is much intact here. You can never have our boobs.

[Idaho]

I have no time for their imaginary friends, when you are tresspassing meet the dogs. The only way we can make this work is by being perfectly clear, this is us, you are welcome here but this is not your country it is ours and we do things our way. So if some beard demands 5 prayer breaks a day they won't make theirselves very popular. Ask it to me and I will give him a spot where there is absolute certainty that while he is praying to mecca everybody will be looking at his butt. If you can't take a healthy dose of rudeness you definately don't belong in the Netherlands, we don't like to be told what to do.

You don't even see the paradox

You don't belong in the Netherlands if you don't like to be told what to do - but here's what you must do or you should leave.

Ahhh the far right. It would be amusing if it didn't lead to violence.

[rvg]

Or, in other words, societies have basic dress codes of what is appropriate attire. We are all forced to abide by it. If not by law, then by social convention.

Alright, let's take a chick in a full islamic dress with a hijab and stuff and compare her to a Catholic nun. Both are covered, both do it out of devotion to God. Nobody would ever give a nun a hard time over the way she is dressed.

[Vladimir]

Gosh i felt like a feminist for a minute there.

There's no shame in that. I've considered myself a lesbian for years.

Alright, let's take a chick in a full islamic dress with a hijab and stuff and compare her to a Catholic nun. Both are covered, both do it out of devotion to God. Nobody would ever give a nun a hard time over the way she is dressed.

Nuns don't swim in their habit/robe thing.

[Idaho]

An excellent point rvg.

What if I decide that I am the high priest of the giant love goat monkey comet religion that I have just made up. My religion stipulates that I wear ski goggles and a fur coat at all times. Should I be taunted and abused by Fragony?

[Idaho]

Taliban and their anti-female laws.

It is denigrating to women. I don't know if you can revoke the privilege unless you infringe on personal freedoms. The women don't complain because that is their culture but as soon as they gain some freedom from their male oppressors i am sure they won't want to wear the burkha. i mean it doesn't really look very convient, must really mess with your peripherals.


Gosh i felt like a feminist for a minute there.

I don't think Fragony and Rory give a toss about women's rights. They are just scared of the filthy foreigners.

[Fragony]

I don't think Fragony and Rory give a toss about women's rights. They are just scared of the filthy foreigners.

And I think this thread should be closed. You are talking with your leftist reflexes not with us. And to be fair, this whole burkini deal comes from a rightist reflex.

[rvg]

Nuns don't swim in their habit/robe thing.

What does this discussion have to do with swimming?

[Louis VI the Fat]

NSFW:

Spoiler Alert, click show to read: 

Should this be allowed? They are religious symbols!:




And this? A clear religious symbol of gender identity, like the burka:




And if yes, then this too? After all, it is just a stylized, westernised version of a religious symbol, like the burkini:




Allow it all? After all, what about freedom of religion, or anti-immigrant fascism!
Or should we accept that we have dress codes in public?

[rvg]

Being naked generally goes against the public decency laws almost across the entire globe. Being covered from head to toe does not violate public decency laws.

[Fragony]

Being naked generally goes against the public decency laws almost across the entire globe. Being covered from head to toe does not violate public decency laws.

Perfectly normal here to us, every woman bathes topless here. Seeing a woman being covered from head to toe is much more offensive to us trust me.

[Andres]

Well, Idaho, frankly, I don't care about whatever non existant religion and silly non existant example you invent to compare the burka with.

Burka = symbol and tool of oppression of women = away with it.

It's just common sense in my book.

[rory_20_uk]

I don't think...

It was good up to this point, then verbal diarrhoea got the better of you.