I...Agree with the French

[Vladimir]

This topic reminds me of

http://www.thelocal.se/20250/20090624/




This should be followed up by a ban, since bikinis reduces women's natural potential to be distinct individuals.

In many cultures that have never heard about feminism, women walking topless is considered the norm.

-

I think some of the fashion Louis linked to really is as manly as fashion theoretically can get; it's only banned because we live in misandric societies.

That's because Swedes are Stupid.

[rvg]

No, because security comes first, if Ali el Hakbar el Boomski comes to town he has 100% freedom of movement and we can't have that. As for the rest, have your way, just don't expect a very sympethatic reaction from me when you are walking around like a relic from whateveritwas.

I don't think you need to worry about a would-be-bomber hiding behind a burqa. If a suicide bomber decides to attack, he'll be clean shaven, dressed in the most casual western attire and would attract zero attention.

[rory_20_uk]

"Than you for coming in to see me Ms Fatwa"
"No problem headteacher"
"There have been some concerns regarding your teaching of the class"
"Yes?"
"It's concerning the garment that you are wearing that is removing all facial features..."
"I hope you're not telling me what to wear? How DARE you be so intolerant! People from my country can get imprisoned or stoned for criticising the dress!!!"
"Oh, I'm very sorry, but the thing is the children are deaf, and find it hard to bond with a tower of black cloth..."

[Fragony]

So....

You want the muslim women to stay away from schools, hospital, government buildings, etc?

Yes, that's a nice way to improve their situation....

They can improve their situation by not covering theirselves all up, do we have any obligations to not let them screw up? No cookies for the unwilling. I don't want to ban these clothes, except the burkha, but no wealthfare when you dress up like a pinguin because you have chosen to not to be of any use to us, sort it out yourselve then, just because you were born doesn't mean you deserve to have a life.

I don't think you need to worry about a would-be-bomber hiding behind a burqa. If a suicide bomber decides to attack, he'll be clean shaven, dressed in the most casual western attire and would attract zero attention.

In a burkha he can attract zero attention much much easier, if something is going on, good luck finding out who is who where and when.

[Ser Clegane]

Intermission

It would be great if this thread could continue without making personal attacks, making wild assumptions about the views of your "opponent" and resorting to stereoptypes.
I am currently quite tempted to close this one, but I have not completely given up the hope that this could continue as a meaningful (and civilised) discussion.

Thanks

End of intermission

[HoreTore]

*facepalm*

Terrorist steryotypes? Are you serious?

Ahahahahahahahahahahaha!!!

GOLDEN!!

[rvg]

In a burkha he can attract zero attention much much easier, if something is going on, good luck finding out who is who where and when.

Yes, zero attention. In Afghanistan. Elsewhere, he/she will stick out like a sore thumb. The 9/11 attackers, the London bombers were all dressed in western clothes.

[Fragony]

Yes, zero attention. In Afghanistan. Elsewhere, he/she will stick out like a sore thumb. The 9/11 attackers, the London bombers were all dressed in western clothes.

Yes, but that is because they had to infiltrate into a certain society, but a society isn't that hard to infiltrate if people are allowed to cover up their faces and all look exactly the same. If I would have any bad intentions I would welcome it like the second comming of the lack of christ.

This should help http://www.brusselsjournal.com/node/4032

Great idea. Really.

[InsaneApache]

The influence of new cultures has managed to destroy a cherished French tradition too: women no longer bathe topless. They don't feel comfortable anymore. I can not begin to describe my grief over this.

It's the end of civilisation as we know it. Over to the Octo-squids.

[rvg]

Yes, but that is because they had to infiltrate into a certain society, but a society isn't that hard to infiltrate if people are allowed to cover up their faces and all look exactly the same. If I would have any bad intentions I would welcome it like the second comming of the lack of christ.

This should help http://www.brusselsjournal.com/node/4032

Great idea. Really.

You do realize that in America you are allowed to wear burqas, so your argument is not valid. Terrorists might be fanatics, but they are not idiots. Burqa might conceal your face, but the outfit itself is so controversial that every cop is guaranteed to watch you like a hawk. In fact, if *I* were a terrorist, I'd hire a couple of hookers to put on burqas and walk around as a distraction for cops, while I would meld with the crowd and do whatever it was that I planned on doing.

[Fragony]

You do realize that in America you are allowed to wear burqas, so your argument is not valid. Terrorists might be fanatics, but they are not idiots. Burqa might conceal your face, but the outfit itself is so controversial that every cop is guaranteed to watch you like a hawk. In fact, if *I* were a terrorist, I'd hire a couple of hookers to put on burqas and walk around as a distraction for cops, while I would meld with the crowd and do whatever it was that I planned on doing.

So when you put yourself in their mind you have already found a use for them, and yet my argument isn't valid?

[rvg]

So when you put yourself in their mind you have already found a use for them, and yet my argument isn't valid?

Of course it isn't valid. You were putting terrorists behind those burqas. I was putting hookers.

[Vladimir]

What does this discussion have to do with swimming?

So, why did this discussion turn away from advocating that women remove their clothes before getting wet?

[Fragony]

Of course it isn't valid. You were putting terrorists behind those burqas. I was putting hookers.

And someone could be putting terminators under it. If I would be running a criminal/terrorist organisation, well, well that's just me how would you do it. To have your guys running the streets with absolute freedom of movement because of absolute concealment of my organisation, pure bliss. And you allow that all because you don't want to insult people who build their houses from mud and camelshit had they not lived in a civilization.

[rvg]

And someone could be putting terminators under it. If I would be running a criminal/terrorist organisation, well, well that's just me how would you do it. To have your guys running the streets with absolute freedom of movement because of absolute concealment of my organisation, pure bliss. And you allow that all because you don't want to insult people who build their houses from camelshit had they not lived in a civilization.

How often do you see people wearing burqas? In order for a burqa to be a viable tool of concealment, it has to be common. So, what's the share of burqa enthusiasts in Dutch society?

[Fragony]

How often do you see people wearing burqas? In order for a burqa to be a viable tool of concealment, it has to be common. So, what's the share of burqa enthusiasts in Dutch society?

I have never seen one in my life, but is that the point.

[rvg]

I have never seen one in my life, but is that the point.

Has burqa been illegal all these years? If not, then what's the purpose of banning something that isn't a problem anyway?

[Fragony]

Has burqa been illegal all these years? If not, then what's the purpose of banning something that isn't a problem anyway?

I don't know how big the problem is in France, but in Belgium it isn't that uncommon that criminals wear them. The burkha just isn't here thankfully.

[rvg]

Still, the question stands: why ban burqas in the Netherlands if they aren't a problem there? I mean, when you pass a law, you expect it to accomplish something. What exactly would this kind of law accomplish if it were passed?

[Crazed Rabbit]

You don't get it do you dearest Fraggles. The debate is not about what happens elsewhere. It's about the nature of our society. And fundamental to that society is freedom of conscience, religion and dress.

Indeed. And I do not believe these women wearing burqas are free to do any of that. They are pressured into doing so by their relatives and their imported culture.

THAT is the point - that these women are not making a completely free decision to wear a burqas. It is a symbol of the repression of women.

Banning the burqa is therefore is therefore an attempt to fight this repression of women and introduce more western values - ie. of equality.

CR

[Fragony]

Still, the question stands: why ban burqas in the Netherlands if they aren't a problem there? I mean, when you pass a law, you expect it to accomplish something. What exactly would this kind of law accomplish if it were passed?

No need to ban them in the Netherlands all the considerations I have made are already covered by Dutch law. I am making a case for why they shouldn't be allowed.

[rvg]

No need to ban them in the Netherlands all the considerations I have made are already covered by Dutch law. I am making a case for why they shouldn't be allowed.

Are burqas allowed in the Netherlands?

[Fragony]

Are burqas allowed in the Netherlands?

Not sure. By law certainly not because someone is concealed. As far as I know we don't have them here.

[rvg]

Not sure. By law certainly not because someone is concealed. As far as I know we don't have them here.

Wait a minute, are you telling me that in The Netherlands you are required by law to have your face visible at all times?

[Fragony]

Wait a minute, are you telling me that in The Netherlands you are required by law to have your face visible at all times?

On the streets yes. I think you can pull of wearing a jason mask on the streets for forever, but it's in essence illegal. There is a huge difference between theory and practise here, just about everything is illegal but it's allowed nevertheless.

[Sasaki Kojiro]

Wait a minute, are you telling me that in The Netherlands you are required by law to have your face visible at all times?

§ 14‑12.8. Wearing of masks, hoods, etc., on public property.

No person or persons shall in this State, while wearing any mask, hood or device whereby the person, face or voice is disguised so as to conceal the identity of the wearer, enter, or appear upon or within the public property of any municipality or county of the State, or of the State of North Carolina. (1953, c. 1193, s. 7.)

§ 14‑12.11. Exemptions from provisions of Article.

[rvg]

§ 14‑12.8. Wearing of masks, hoods, etc., on public property.

No person or persons shall in this State, while wearing any mask, hood or device whereby the person, face or voice is disguised so as to conceal the identity of the wearer, enter, or appear upon or within the public property of any municipality or county of the State, or of the State of North Carolina. (1953, c. 1193, s. 7.)

§ 14‑12.11. Exemptions from provisions of Article.

I credit The Klan for that law.

[Fragony]

I credit The Klan for that law.

We don't have those either. It's just common sense.

France has this law, every western country does as far as I know, so they can skip the whole religion part and just ban the burkha because we can simply do it. If we don't, maybe I should start wearing a jason mask go to the bank and demand equal treatment just for fun? The bhurka can be banned just because of the principle of equal treatment.

[Tribesman]

According to the women that wear them, they're making a statement on the superiority of the Islamic culture, and hoping to promote a migration towards it in their new Western home

Foreign people look and act different and native people don't like it.

People should come to the country to meld with the society, not do what they or their ancestors did in their own.

If they don't like it - leave.

What a load of bollox.
Did none of you notice that Carole is a French citizen of French ancestry.

Actually since two of you are British is it a good time to mention that this week in the name of decency a rather large British business has banned people from wearing swimming trunks in its swimming pools .
I wonder if they are going to reintroduce the tradtional Victorian bathing costumes and bring back strict sex segregation for swimming amenities in the name of culture

[rvg]

We don't have those either. It's just common sense.

France has this law, every western country does as far as I know, so they can skip the whole religion part and just ban the burkha because we can simply do it. If we don't, maybe I should start wearing a jason mask go to the bank and demand equal treatment just for fun? The bhurka can be banned just because of the principle of equal treatment.

*shrug* what is forbidden in North Carolina is not forbidden in New York or Michigan. Anyway, why I suppose that banning burqas under the mask provision might not violate the letter of the law it would most certainly violate the spirit of the law.