How effective was the Pilum?

[gamerdude873]

I was wondering when this was going to get posted.

I agree, javelins on the whole are hella nerfed, especially the pila. I mean, why whould they use them if they only caused one or two casualties a volley? I'm not saying that the whole enemy unit needs to roll over and die (even if it would be hilarious), but javelins seem to do even less damage than the even lighter and smaller arrow. I'm no expert, but the bow and arrow's main drawback was the arrow's lack of mass behind it, so it didn't have enough punch. The javelin, later replaced by the longer ranged crossbow, had the mass and power, if lacking in distance, to handle heavier armored soldiers.

If you wanted, it's not difficult to edit the EDU on our own and post it as a mini mod.

[Andy1984]

I mean, why whould they use them if they only caused one or two casualties a volley?

There always is a psychological impact of being under fire and being unable to throw something back. If nothing else, the soldiers would at least feel comfortable to know they could return fire, and against non-javelin equiped units this (killing and psychological effect) may even have had a devastating effect.

[Apázlinemjó]

If you want to kill heavy armored units with pilums, position your troops on the right flank of them and throw the pilums from there, because they won't get the shield bonuses. Right?

[The General]

I mean, why whould they use them if they only caused one or two casualties a volley?

Ugh, my javelins tend to cause casualties in the dozens (I play on huge settings). As Lusotani, the battles are just brutal in Iberia, with hundreds of javelins in the air and soon dozens of men on both sides lay slain...

I'm no expert, but the bow and arrow's main drawback was the arrow's lack of mass behind it, so it didn't have enough punch.

Longbows? Composite bows are quite effective too, afaik.

If you want to kill heavy armored units with pilums, position your troops on the right flank of them and throw the pilums from there, because they won't get the shield bonuses. Right?

Aye, rear is a good place from which to throw, too. Skirmisher cavalry, eg. Equites Campanici, especially can do nice morale damage to an enemy, all the while killing foes. Follow this with a charge to the flank/rear and just watch the panic spread...

[keiskander]

What i experience the pilum is that its more of making the enemy distracted before the clash. As it said it had ability to penetrate heavier armor at close range or stuck in shields. But if it is so leathal im not all convinced about. I stick to my distraction theory which follows by the heavy roman infantry clash that followed after the throw was more affective and decisive.

[Julius Augustus]

If the Pilum stuck onto your shield, you would almost certainly die very quickly in a close combat scrum, especially as most of the people with their shields destroyed would have been in the first couple ranks.
I know that Pila are effective against armored units from the rear, but they should be from the front, also. Plus, against a humble unit of lugoae, a Pila volley will kill 10 guys if you are lucky, while regular javelins from gaeroas will kill many more. All the mentioned effects of the Pilum would have caused many initial casualties, as well as weakening the enemy in the melée.

@gamerdude-I may post a mini mod with this and some other stuff.

[Apázlinemjó]

I was curious, so began a few test with Post Marians and Gaeroas against the poor Lugoae.

First try, Gaeroas

First volley of javelins:

Spoiler Alert, click show to read: 

Second volley of javelins:

Spoiler Alert, click show to read: 

Second try, Gaeroas

First volley of javelins:

Spoiler Alert, click show to read: 

Second volley of javelins:

Spoiler Alert, click show to read: 

First try, Cohors Reformata

First volley of pilums:

Spoiler Alert, click show to read: 

Secondy volley of pilums:

Spoiler Alert, click show to read: 

Second try, Cohors Reformata

First volley of pilums:

Spoiler Alert, click show to read: 

Secondy volley of pilums:

Spoiler Alert, click show to read: 

Romans killed 50% less men with javelins than Gaeroas. Interesting.

[NeoSpartan]

If you want to kill heavy armored units with pilums, position your troops on the right flank of them and throw the pilums from there, because they won't get the shield bonuses. Right?

X3!!!!!!!!

no shield defence from right side or back

[gamerdude873]

Bow was the weapon in the east. Massed archery was practised by peoples like Persians and Chinese, and horse archery was the primary form of combat in the steppes.

Woo-wee! I must have been smokin' somethin a little differnet than the usual when I said that! I was still thinking apparently about the composite bow's use in the west, and not in the east. (Blame that new weed) But however:

Composite bows weren't used in the West because the heavier rains there caused the glue holding the bows together to dissolve, and the bows would literally fall apart.

Go figure, you learn something new everyday. So if the climate had been that much different, our ancestors would have been fighting with a lot more bows and arrows? Apparently then, this is what the long bow and the crossbow solved. These held up much better in the climate, or at the very least didn't frickin' fall apart when you needed them most.

Anyways, does this mean that my case for the javelin is completely screwed? Was the javelin just a fire and forget weapon that everyone could carry that might kill someone or at least scare the poop out of them when it lands on their shields in a cloud with many sharp pointy ends?

Missiles do cause morale damage - as do the casualties caused by them.

Hell, you got this all figured out. Another thing I didn't know about RTW. Maybe more morale damage would be better than more actual damage.

Still, the original question was about the Pilum. Shouldn't that at least have more damage? It seems kinda nerfed from my Point Of View. Maybe the real question here is this: How innovative was the Pilum historically? Was it merely something that did just what every other javelin did, except that it's spear head broke when it landed, and that it's piercing capability was just as good as the next javelin, and it was highly popularized because the Romans carried it and they tended to win a lot? Or was it a truly devastating piece of hardware? Or thirdly, was it the kind of javelin that was far better than the standard pointy throwing stick, but in comparison to all other things, it was just okay? If we can answer this, it might give us an idea on how exactly to tweak it, or if it needs tweaking at all. As mentioned, the Pilum was damn heavy for a javelin, but them men using it were skilled at using it and very strong from their training. I think the real root of the problem is, we can't exactly convince a bunch of people to stand in a tight formation and let us throw heavy sharp sticks at them and see what happens, to know exactly what sort of damage a javelin is supposed to do, then turn that around into a computer game. You say it's just fine, while I think it isn't enough (for the pilum), but there's no real way we can really resolve it to find what is really "enough casualties".

About the current in game effectiveness, Foot says

We are happy with the performance of javelins in EBI, you can expect to see the same results in EBII as you did in EBI. We would love to include some sort of penalty to units that have been struck by javelins to represent their primary use before a charge as a device for disrupting a formation. However, we cannot, and it would be inappropriate to have them as some sort of killing machine instead.

Still, the fact that Pila have lower damage, despite their AP, makes it seem kind of inaccurate historically. I've been wrong before though. Just look up a few posts and you'll see.

[Philippus Flavius Homovallumus]

Ok, I've been away. So, lets clear a few things up:

1. Longbows were used around 5,000 years ago at least, just not as massed war-weapons because Celtic warfare always remained somewhat heroic in nature.

2. The pilum does not have lowere damage, but lower attack.

3. The pilum is a heavy weapon and therefore traveled more slowly through the air.

4. Ergo, if you are not wearing too much armour a thrown pilum is easier to dodge than a lighter javalin.

5. RTW has no "dodge" defence stat to calculate how likely a soldier is to dodge a ranged attack.

6. So, we nerfed pilum attack to reflect the fact that lightly armoured troops were more likely able to dodge this form of javalin, but gave them AP to reflect the fact that if they did hit they were more than likely to skewer you.

[ARCHIPPOS]

Xenofon, Hellenica/Book 4/Chapter 5
"The Lacedaemonians were presently within range of the javelins.Here a man was wounded, and there another dropped, not to rise again. Each time orders were given to the attendant shield-bearers to pick up the men and bear them into Lechaeum; and these indeed were the only members of the mora who were, strictly speaking, saved. Then the polemarch ordered the ten-years-service men to charge and drive off their assailants.
15Charge, however, as they might, they took nothing by their pains--not a man could they come at within javelin range. Being heavy infantry opposed to light troops, before they could get to close quarters the enemy's word of command sounded "Retire!" whilst as soon as their own ranks fell back, scattered as they were in consequence of a charge where each man's individual speed had told, Iphicrates and his men turned right about and renewed the javelin attack, while others, running alongside, harassed their exposed flank. At the very first charge the assailants had shot down nine or ten, and, encouraged by this success, pressed on with increasing audacity.
16These attacks told so severely that the polemarch a second time gave the order (and this time for the fifteen-years-service men) to charge. The order was promptly obeyed, but on retiring they lost more men than on the first occasion, and it was not until the pick and flower of the division had succumbed [...]Again and again the monotonous tale of doing and suffering repeated itself, except that as their own ranks grew thinner and their courage ebbed, the courage of their assailants grew bolder and their numbers increased.
17In desperation they massed compactly upon the narrow slope of a hillock, distant a couple of furlongs or so from the sea, and a couple of miles perhaps from Lechaeum. Their friends in Lechaeum, perceiving them, embarked in boats and sailed round until they were immediately under the hillock. And now, in the very slough of despair, being so sorely troubled as man after man dropped dead, and unable to strike a blow, to crown their distress they saw the enemy's heavy infantry advancing. Then they took to flight; some of them threw themselves into the sea; others--a mere handful--escaped with the cavalry into Lechaeum. The death-roll, including those who fell in the second fight and the final flight, must have numbered two hundred and fifty slain, or thereabouts.
18Such is the tale of the destruction of the Lacedaemonian mora. "

so we see what a terrible threat javelins were to heavy infrantry...i suppose the idea of the Roman heavy infantry carrying some extra pila was precisely as a counter measure to the possibility of facing skirmisher opponents-that way the legionairies would at least stand a fighting chance instead of get decimated by distance... also remember that Romans must have had quite a lot of experience of such guerilla tactics subjugating the Etruscans and Italians ...figting on rough terrain against hardy mountain people who refuse to stand and fight the pilum must have proved quite a life saver ...
All in all the pilum offered Romans volatility and the ability of counter-skirmishing should the need arise ... the prospect of showering your heavy infantry opponent with some javelins before impact was just an extra treat...