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Thread: Mercenaries
Why do so many nations have problems with letting their citizens become mercenaries? Organizations like Executive Outcomes have done a great job with ending insurgencies in Africa, while Blackwater, despite having its share of problems, has prevented State Department officials from getting killed while in Iraq.
Is it because of ethical issues, or because of other factors like nations wanting to hold onto their trained personnel solely for their own use?
Is it because of ethical issues, or because of other factors like nations wanting to hold onto their trained personnel solely for their own use?
Mercenaries....
Can burn in hell. Capital punishment for anyone who joins organizations in that business.
My opinion anyway.
Can burn in hell. Capital punishment for anyone who joins organizations in that business.
My opinion anyway.
Originally Posted by :
Mercenaries....
Can burn in hell. Capital punishment for anyone who joins organizations in that business.
My opinion anyway.
Mercenaries....
Can burn in hell. Capital punishment for anyone who joins organizations in that business.
My opinion anyway.
Oh, come on. What about the A-team ?!?!?!
As sergeant in the army: may they burn.
war should not be about money.
also, they do not follow the moral code the rest do.
war should not be about money.
also, they do not follow the moral code the rest do.
Mercenaries, properly disciplined and kept under full control of their employer, can and should have a role in modern warfare in some way if employing mercenaries is deemed sound and practical by the potential employer.
EMFM, elaborate.
WHY would we need them?
I mean, exactly in what part of warfare do we need troops not held by the Genevé convention?
WHY would we need them?
I mean, exactly in what part of warfare do we need troops not held by the Genevé convention?
Mercenaries are only for security jobs, aren't they? Not actual offensive combat.
depends, Beskar.
Are you talking USA or world wide?
Also, in the USA the mercs have done combat ops, in some situations even leading troops from regular army.
They also have been contracted to torture people.
Are you talking USA or world wide?
Also, in the USA the mercs have done combat ops, in some situations even leading troops from regular army.
They also have been contracted to torture people.
Originally Posted by Kadagar_AV:
war should not be about money.
also, they do not follow the moral code the rest do.
Ya, war should be about your country, and enhancing its power! o wait...war should not be about money.
also, they do not follow the moral code the rest do.
It should be about God, and getting rid of those heathens! no, thats not it...
Its about bringing those barbarians out of the dark ages and into civilization! No, thats never worked out....
So what exactly is the "right" reason for war?
And I doubt all soldiers have a code of ethics. Either im naive or you are.
Mooks,
naive..
I would fight and die for the principles I deem worthy of fighting and dying for. Be it nationalistic ones or philisophical ones.
That is the ONLY reason why anyone should point a gun at someone else, and pull the trigger.
Money, is not a worthy reason.
As an example, I am sgt in the army, that does NOT however mean I would automaticly go to war if sweden called. It depends on what the war was about.
My grandfather was NOT a soldier, but went to war against hitler.
I get back to my original statement, waging war should NEVER be about money.
naive..
I would fight and die for the principles I deem worthy of fighting and dying for. Be it nationalistic ones or philisophical ones.
That is the ONLY reason why anyone should point a gun at someone else, and pull the trigger.
Money, is not a worthy reason.
As an example, I am sgt in the army, that does NOT however mean I would automaticly go to war if sweden called. It depends on what the war was about.
My grandfather was NOT a soldier, but went to war against hitler.
I get back to my original statement, waging war should NEVER be about money.
Originally Posted by Kadagar_AV:
I get back to my original statement, waging war should NEVER be about money.
I get back to my original statement, waging war should NEVER be about money.
All the ads for the defence force here emphasise the good pay and free education. Dying for your country is never mentioned. the mindset of the youth here in relation to the army is;"Possibility of death for my country? @#$% that!"
"Possibility of death for lots of money and free education? *stops and thinks for a minute* a few say yes, most still say @#$% that!"
Mercenaries: Can be useful in dirty jobs? Not really because if the Big Authority, the only one which has the legal right to use violence, gives the Green Light, some special squad would do the jobs…
The only use of mercenaries is to hind the casualties…
You do not join the Army or sign for modern mercenaries for the same reasons. One is for ideological and the second for money (Iraq), boredom, need of adrenaline and others…
Then what laws apply to mercenaries? Geneva is caught prisoner, Common law if they kill some body? Or no law at all, random law depending the case, the employer, circumstances etc…
What if they change side? Mercenaries can do this. You can change employers, giving your notice then do to the other side… Would be it betraying? Or just usual and common employment rules? In some jobs you can’t apply to a similar post in concurrent companies for a certain amount of time (e.g. if you know clients).
The only use of mercenaries is to hind the casualties…
You do not join the Army or sign for modern mercenaries for the same reasons. One is for ideological and the second for money (Iraq), boredom, need of adrenaline and others…
Then what laws apply to mercenaries? Geneva is caught prisoner, Common law if they kill some body? Or no law at all, random law depending the case, the employer, circumstances etc…
What if they change side? Mercenaries can do this. You can change employers, giving your notice then do to the other side… Would be it betraying? Or just usual and common employment rules? In some jobs you can’t apply to a similar post in concurrent companies for a certain amount of time (e.g. if you know clients).
Deniabilty...
Mercenaries help provide this for rich nations bound by silly and unfair rules... I don't want this available to them...
Mercenaries help provide this for rich nations bound by silly and unfair rules... I don't want this available to them...
Originally Posted by miotas:
All the ads for the defence force here emphasise the good pay and free education. Dying for your country is never mentioned. the mindset of the youth here in relation to the army is;
"Possibility of death for my country? @#$% that!"
"Possibility of death for lots of money and free education? *stops and thinks for a minute* a few say yes, most still say @#$% that!"
You more or less get a free education in Australia anyhow and most jobs out pay the army for the same conditions (mining). All the ads for the defence force here emphasise the good pay and free education. Dying for your country is never mentioned. the mindset of the youth here in relation to the army is;"Possibility of death for my country? @#$% that!"
"Possibility of death for lots of money and free education? *stops and thinks for a minute* a few say yes, most still say @#$% that!"
History has proven that mercenaries will stab you in the back the miniute things go south. You can talk about ethics all you want but in the end there not viable anyway.
Originally Posted by Beskar:
Mercenaries are only for security jobs, aren't they? Not actual offensive combat.
Security jobs? Don't believe the hype.Mercenaries are only for security jobs, aren't they? Not actual offensive combat.
Mercenaries exist to enable brutal dictators to enforce their rule, or help a would-be dictator with his coup.
Hired killers. Nothing more.
Originally Posted by DemonArchangel:
Why do so many nations have problems with letting their citizens become mercenaries? Organizations like Executive Outcomes have done a great job with ending insurgencies in Africa, while Blackwater, despite having its share of problems, has prevented State Department officials from getting killed while in Iraq.
Is it because of ethical issues, or because of other factors like nations wanting to hold onto their trained personnel solely for their own use?
The main problem occurs when the conflict are about to be over. You see, you can be too efficient as a merc... So there's a certain conflict of interest. Why do so many nations have problems with letting their citizens become mercenaries? Organizations like Executive Outcomes have done a great job with ending insurgencies in Africa, while Blackwater, despite having its share of problems, has prevented State Department officials from getting killed while in Iraq.
Is it because of ethical issues, or because of other factors like nations wanting to hold onto their trained personnel solely for their own use?
Then there is the loyalty issue, as for mercs in general it's perfectly fine switching sides as soon as their contract runs out (and still be considered trustworthy). The old school merc wars had the winning side recruiting troops from the prisoners of the loser.
Third, they're fairly usable as black ops units if they do show preference for certain employers, as in that case they're a bit more reliable, while still more expendable than your own units.
Fourth, trouble handling them in a conflict. If you capture them, are they pow? If they join you, what's their status?
Fifth, they shift the monopoly of violence from the state, to whom can afford them. Spreading use of military force is normally not a good thing.
Sixth, spread of higher quality military training, but that's mostly for the states.
Originally Posted by :
Security jobs? Don't believe the hype.
Mercenaries exist to enable brutal dictators to enforce their rule, or help a would-be dictator with his coup.
Hired killers. Nothing more.
blackwater, executive operations, etc. do not put evil dictators into power. They are security guards for high ranking us officials (and on occaison other western nations) They are mostly all retired special forces soldiers. they free up real spec forces for offense but still allow good protection for high risk assets.Security jobs? Don't believe the hype.
Mercenaries exist to enable brutal dictators to enforce their rule, or help a would-be dictator with his coup.
Hired killers. Nothing more.
You need to stop playing mercenaries. Nillson is not a reality he is a video game character.
Originally Posted by Centurion1:
blackwater, executive operations, etc. do not put evil dictators into power. They are security guards for high ranking us officials (and on occaison other western nations) They are mostly all retired special forces soldiers. they free up real spec forces for offense but still allow good protection for high risk assets.
Pick any coup in africa, and there's a 99% chance that there were mercs involved. Mercs don't do "security jobs" in africa. They're hired to kill. Either by protecting those companies looking to exploit natural resources, a would-be dictator looking to overthrow an opponent or a dictator needing someone to kill his opponents, mercs will almost certainly be involved.blackwater, executive operations, etc. do not put evil dictators into power. They are security guards for high ranking us officials (and on occaison other western nations) They are mostly all retired special forces soldiers. they free up real spec forces for offense but still allow good protection for high risk assets.
As for Iraq and afghanistan, the problem with mercs there is that they're not bound by conventions, and as such has nothing to do there. They are indeed the "unlawful combatants" you've been putting in gitmo these last years. Military power should remain in the hands of the state alone. If Blackwater is so damn useful in Iraq, and it's not because they can murder as they please without getting caught, then I suggest that the US spend the money they pay blackwater on their own military, in compliance with the geneva convention.
Like every other respectable nation does.
Originally Posted by Centurion1:
You need to stop playing mercenaries. Nillson is not a reality he is a video game character.
I don't play FPS games You need to stop playing mercenaries. Nillson is not a reality he is a video game character.
Originally Posted by :
As any other respectable nation does
Most western nations use "mercenaries"As any other respectable nation does
Originally Posted by :
Pick any coup in africa, and there's a 99% chance that there were mercs involved. Mercs don't do "security jobs" in africa. They're hired to kill. Either by protecting those companies looking to exploit natural resources, a would-be dictator looking to overthrow an opponent or a dictator needing someone to kill his opponents, mercs will almost certainly be involved.
99% of all coups in africa are caused by "evil" mercenaries, i think not. you are just playing on the stereotype of a mercenary. a man i know. who works for blackwater was just doing a job in Kenya. Hear about any coups there? He was doing a training job for the Kenyan secret service. The vast majority these days are well-trained professionals that handle security.Pick any coup in africa, and there's a 99% chance that there were mercs involved. Mercs don't do "security jobs" in africa. They're hired to kill. Either by protecting those companies looking to exploit natural resources, a would-be dictator looking to overthrow an opponent or a dictator needing someone to kill his opponents, mercs will almost certainly be involved.
As to the use of private contractors being a waste of money, i do not think so.
Originally Posted by Centurion1:
99% of all coups in africa are caused by "evil" mercenaries, i think not. you are just playing on the stereotype of a mercenary. a man i know. who works for blackwater was just doing a job in Kenya. Hear about any coups there? He was doing a training job for the Kenyan secret service. The vast majority these days are well-trained professionals that handle security.
Caused by? Now where did I say that? They are not caused by mercs, but they are most certainly involved in nearly all of them in one way or another. Ditto when it comes to exploiting resources.99% of all coups in africa are caused by "evil" mercenaries, i think not. you are just playing on the stereotype of a mercenary. a man i know. who works for blackwater was just doing a job in Kenya. Hear about any coups there? He was doing a training job for the Kenyan secret service. The vast majority these days are well-trained professionals that handle security.
But no, not every aspect of their business is bad. But the mafia also gave contributions to charity, ya know.
Originally Posted by Centurion1:
As to the use of private contractors being a waste of money, i do not think so.
So.... The US army is ineffective?As to the use of private contractors being a waste of money, i do not think so.
Since i am more than likely going to JOIN the US Army, i would imagine i believe they are effective.
Mercenaries do not operate as an arm of the united states army. They are quasi-military which means they are relegated to training, defense, protection, and intelligence. all things that may lead to fighting but are not directly fighting. This is the US of course.
Mercenaries do not operate as an arm of the united states army. They are quasi-military which means they are relegated to training, defense, protection, and intelligence. all things that may lead to fighting but are not directly fighting. This is the US of course.
Originally Posted by Centurion1:
Since i am more than likely going to JOIN the US Army, i would imagine i believe they are effective.
Mercenaries do not operate as an arm of the united states army. They are quasi-military which means they are relegated to training, defense, protection, and intelligence. all things that may lead to fighting but are not directly fighting. This is the US of course.
So.... Since you believe that Blackwater is worth the money you pay them to do those things, that must mean that you consider the US army itself inferior in these jobs, no?Since i am more than likely going to JOIN the US Army, i would imagine i believe they are effective.
Mercenaries do not operate as an arm of the united states army. They are quasi-military which means they are relegated to training, defense, protection, and intelligence. all things that may lead to fighting but are not directly fighting. This is the US of course.
Hiring mercenaries seems a bit insulting to the regular armed forces. I mean, really, don't we have Delta Force to do our dirty work? What's wrong with them?
And if things get really bad, you just call in Jack Bauer. Really, people. No need for overpayed mercs at all.
And if things get really bad, you just call in Jack Bauer. Really, people. No need for overpayed mercs at all.
Originally Posted by HoreTore:
So.... Since you believe that Blackwater is worth the money you pay them to do those things, that must mean that you consider the US army itself inferior in these jobs, no?
To free up soldiers for the front line? If you don't have enough regular soldiers around to do the job?So.... Since you believe that Blackwater is worth the money you pay them to do those things, that must mean that you consider the US army itself inferior in these jobs, no?
Originally Posted by Evil_Maniac From Mars:
To free up soldiers for the front line? If you don't have enough regular soldiers around to do the job?
Nope, since you could perfectly use the money spent on blackwater to hire the soldiers you need. Actually, you could just hire the very same soldiers for the US army instead of proxying them as mercs.To free up soldiers for the front line? If you don't have enough regular soldiers around to do the job?
But a US army soldier is bound by the geneva conventions(nominally, at least...), whereas blackwater operates outside international law. You don't have the be a major conspiracy theorist to worry about that fact.
Originally Posted by HoreTore:
Nope, since you could perfectly use the money spent on blackwater to hire the soldiers you need. Actually, you could just hire the very same soldiers for the US army instead of proxying them as mercs.
You have to hire the soldiers, train them, give them benefits and pensions, and so on. Why would one hire mercenaries in Rome: Total War? Because you didn't have to train the troops, they were a very quick fix. You don't have to promise them any benefits, either - their employer does that for you (which may well cut down bureaucratic workload and waste, but I'm speculating here).Nope, since you could perfectly use the money spent on blackwater to hire the soldiers you need. Actually, you could just hire the very same soldiers for the US army instead of proxying them as mercs.
Originally Posted by :
But a US army soldier is bound by the geneva conventions(nominally, at least...), whereas blackwater operates outside international law.
An added convenience for the hiring power. Change the international laws then, if you like.But a US army soldier is bound by the geneva conventions(nominally, at least...), whereas blackwater operates outside international law.
Originally Posted by Evil_Maniac From Mars:
You have to hire the soldiers, train them, give them benefits and pensions, and so on. Why would one hire mercenaries in Rome: Total War? Because you didn't have to train the troops, they were a very quick fix. You don't have to promise them any benefits, either - their employer does that for you (which may well cut down bureaucratic workload and waste, but I'm speculating here).
Train the soldiers? Already done, Blackwater mercs are all ex-US army soldiers. You don't have to provide them any benefits? What? You think you just pay for their hourly wage, and then the boss of Blackwater is kind enough to provide the benefits? No, the world doesn't work that way. The benefits for the blackwater employees is included in the cost to hire them.You have to hire the soldiers, train them, give them benefits and pensions, and so on. Why would one hire mercenaries in Rome: Total War? Because you didn't have to train the troops, they were a very quick fix. You don't have to promise them any benefits, either - their employer does that for you (which may well cut down bureaucratic workload and waste, but I'm speculating here).
As for the bureaucracy thing, wrong again. Blackwater needs the same bureaucracy to handle things as the US army would need.
No, the only reason to hire Blackwater, would be...
Originally Posted by Evil_Maniac From Mars:
An added convenience for the hiring power. Change the international laws then, if you like.
....And this comment kinda leaves me speechless.An added convenience for the hiring power. Change the international laws then, if you like.
We can talk as much as we want but Mercenaries will always remain.
It, selling your skills as a warrior, is one of the oldest jobs in the world(after prostitution of course).
It, selling your skills as a warrior, is one of the oldest jobs in the world(after prostitution of course).
Originally Posted by HoreTore:
Train the soldiers? Already done, Blackwater mercs are all ex-US army soldiers.
All of them?Train the soldiers? Already done, Blackwater mercs are all ex-US army soldiers.
Originally Posted by :
You don't have to provide them any benefits? What? You think you just pay for their hourly wage, and then the boss of Blackwater is kind enough to provide the benefits?
Hardly. Of course you contribute to their benefits, but you don't have to pay for all of them. Other companies or countries hiring Blackwater personnel also contribute, meaning you may not have to pay as much in a roundabout fashion I suppose. Do Blackwater personnel also get things like funerals paid for by the US Army (directly, not through the hiring fee)?You don't have to provide them any benefits? What? You think you just pay for their hourly wage, and then the boss of Blackwater is kind enough to provide the benefits?
Originally Posted by :
As for the bureaucracy thing, wrong again. Blackwater needs the same bureaucracy to handle things as the US army would need.
You misread my post - my point was that the government would not need to have the bureaucracy to deal with it, making it Blackwater's problem.As for the bureaucracy thing, wrong again. Blackwater needs the same bureaucracy to handle things as the US army would need.
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